8 ms·

Same thing in London. From April 2019, diesel cars older than ~2014 and petrol cars older than ~2005 will have to pay 12.50GBP a day to drive in the centre. A

Same thing in London. From April 2019, diesel cars older than ~2014 and petrol cars older than ~2005 will have to pay 12.50GBP a day to drive in the centre. A few years later, the zone will be expanded to cover an area with a radius of approximately 5-10 miles around the centre (so basically everywhere apart from far-flung suburbs). 12.50 a day is pretty much as good as a ban (for most it'd make driving into and out of London cost more than 5x more for example).

andrepd 8y ago
I don't like that very much. It's equivalent to saying "only the rich can drive in the city", another example of cities being turned into "playgrounds of the rich". Why should the gas-guzzling obnoxious Lamborghini get to drive and not my comparatively clean city car? Just say "vehicles with more emissions than x are banned" rather than pricing them out or even going by fabrication year.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- esotericn 8y ago
  I think you've missed something here - the emissions bands are based on, well, emissions. (I used years, but it's not model year, it's Euro emissions standards, which happen to track model year fairly closely (hence the ~)). A clean car will be allowed in free. A dirty car will have to pay. A new Lambo is Euro 6, just as a new city car would be. It's not about fuel efficiency but particulate emissions, i.e. stuff people breathe in that's bad for them. If it's the 'pay for it' aspect you're bothered about - eh. I like the idea that if I want, I can pay to drive in the city. Most of the time I won't, but if my Grandma comes to visit, we'll use my car.
  - andrepd 8y ago
    >the emissions bands are based on, well, emissions. (I used years, but it's not model year, it's Euro emissions standards, which happen to track model year fairly closely (hence the ~)) Ah, gotcha. I didn't realise that, thanks.
  - roel_v 8y ago
    Is a Lamborghini euro6? I don't think they are, I don't see how they could be, and the data I can find says they're not (but I could only find Dutch energy standards, where a 2017 Aventador is class g, which is the worst there is). This doesn't take away from ypur point, I'm just saying that real performance cars don't compete on emissions, and subsequently will be affected by all these bans (eg in Belgium when road tax eas changes to reflect emissions 6 years ago, performance cars became significantly more expensive, while some suvs (like my x3 :) ) became significantly cheaper)
    - master-lincoln 8y ago
      energy standards != emission standards Apparently the current models Huracáne and Aventador are Euro6 according to their website. E.g. https://www.lamborghini.com/en-en/models/huracan/huracan-performante-spyder https://www.lamborghini.com/en-en/models/huracan/huracan-per...
      - roel_v 8y ago
        Oh TIL, I had a completely wrong mental image of what euro6 actually means, thank you.
    - Brakenshire 8y ago
      All cars built 2014 or later are Euro 6, which is the standard for diesel, after the earlier cars were caught cheating. All cars built 2004 or later are Euro 4, which is the standard for petrol cars. These are increasing strict emissions standards for maximum quantity of various pollutants.
- rb808 8y ago
  I've you've ever tried, you'll know that only the rich can park in the city at least, so it isn't that different.
- Arnt 8y ago
  Well, banning everything except Lamborghinis would be very much more effective than, say, the <5yo cars, since there are a few dozen Lamborghinis in the city where I live, compared to a six-digit number of newish cars. If you want to compare like with like, the fair basis of comparison would be the Lamborghinis against the few dozen newest cars, or the few dozen least-polluting cars.
- tim333 8y ago
  >Enforcement of the ULEZ will be based on the declared emissions of the vehicle rather than the age. Generally speaking, petrol cars that meet the emissions standards are those registered after 2005. However cars that meet the ULEZ standards have been available since 2000. So you can avoid it just by driving a fairly normal low polluting vehicle.
cannam 8y ago
I was surprised to find my small petrol car made in 2001 is exempt from the London charge. I realise the primary aim is to reduce diesel emissions, but it seems a bit sad that our expectations today can still be met by a 17-year-old petrol vehicle.
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  Diesels are terrible engines for city cars. They don’t in fact meet even the post scandal standards. Petrol is a fundamentally cleaner technology.
paganel 8y ago
This is basically a regressive tax as it will affect more the poorer segment of the population, meaning those that don’t have money to purchase newer cars (let alone EVs). The same applies to Paris and Northern Italy, where similar measures are in place. What this will also “accomplish” is that it will make these poorer people tourists in their own city/region, as the downtown areas will be more easily accessible by the “richer” people. As such, I expect revolt movements like the “gillets jaunes” protest now happening in France to become more widespread and more frequent.
- jdavis703 8y ago
  The French protests are about people outside of metro areas who don't have access to the same quality of transportation infrastructure. London has world-class infrastructure and many options for entering the city center without a car.
  - paganel 8y ago
    That was the initial reason for the protest, yes, right now it’s a more general thing. And about London, afaik public transport is expensive as hell and once you get outside the M25 we’re talking trains and such, if I’m not mistaken, which are even more expensive and with a lot more time delays. So my point about this being a regressive tax stands, because it would be way cheaper for a blue collar English guy to commute using a 1000 pounds beater Vauxhall than to pay hundreds of pounds each month for public transport passes. But the current tax system prohibits this because that beater Vauxhall Corsa also pollutes the air breathed by the rich guy who pays 20 million pounds or more for a London condo, and it’s at that precise moment that you can hear that rich guy remember about “externalities” and “the tragedy of the commons”, but when his wealth manager invests in some copper company listed on the LSE that feeling about needing to cover for “externalities” totally goes above his head. Marx would have had a field day with the current political and societal situation in the West, it screams hypocrisy and “schizoid way of being” from a mile away.
    - esotericn 8y ago
      My car cost 300 quid (yes, three hundred GBP - about 1-2 weeks rent in London). It is exempt from the ULEZ charge, both the 2019 and 2021 one. It's really not a high bar to hit. It actually should be going way further and faster.

andrepd 8y ago

I don't like that very much. It's equivalent to saying "only the rich can drive in the city", another example of cities being turned into "playgrounds of the rich". Why should the gas-guzzling obnoxious Lamborghini get to drive and not my comparatively clean city car? Just say "vehicles with more emissions than x are banned" rather than pricing them out or even going by fabrication year.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
esotericn 8y ago
I think you've missed something here - the emissions bands are based on, well, emissions. (I used years, but it's not model year, it's Euro emissions standards, which happen to track model year fairly closely (hence the ~)). A clean car will be allowed in free. A dirty car will have to pay. A new Lambo is Euro 6, just as a new city car would be. It's not about fuel efficiency but particulate emissions, i.e. stuff people breathe in that's bad for them. If it's the 'pay for it' aspect you're bothered about - eh. I like the idea that if I want, I can pay to drive in the city. Most of the time I won't, but if my Grandma comes to visit, we'll use my car.
- andrepd 8y ago
  >the emissions bands are based on, well, emissions. (I used years, but it's not model year, it's Euro emissions standards, which happen to track model year fairly closely (hence the ~)) Ah, gotcha. I didn't realise that, thanks.
- roel_v 8y ago
  Is a Lamborghini euro6? I don't think they are, I don't see how they could be, and the data I can find says they're not (but I could only find Dutch energy standards, where a 2017 Aventador is class g, which is the worst there is). This doesn't take away from ypur point, I'm just saying that real performance cars don't compete on emissions, and subsequently will be affected by all these bans (eg in Belgium when road tax eas changes to reflect emissions 6 years ago, performance cars became significantly more expensive, while some suvs (like my x3 :) ) became significantly cheaper)
  - master-lincoln 8y ago
    energy standards != emission standards Apparently the current models Huracáne and Aventador are Euro6 according to their website. E.g. https://www.lamborghini.com/en-en/models/huracan/huracan-performante-spyder https://www.lamborghini.com/en-en/models/huracan/huracan-per...
    - roel_v 8y ago
      Oh TIL, I had a completely wrong mental image of what euro6 actually means, thank you.
  - Brakenshire 8y ago
    All cars built 2014 or later are Euro 6, which is the standard for diesel, after the earlier cars were caught cheating. All cars built 2004 or later are Euro 4, which is the standard for petrol cars. These are increasing strict emissions standards for maximum quantity of various pollutants.
rb808 8y ago
I've you've ever tried, you'll know that only the rich can park in the city at least, so it isn't that different.
Arnt 8y ago
Well, banning everything except Lamborghinis would be very much more effective than, say, the <5yo cars, since there are a few dozen Lamborghinis in the city where I live, compared to a six-digit number of newish cars. If you want to compare like with like, the fair basis of comparison would be the Lamborghinis against the few dozen newest cars, or the few dozen least-polluting cars.
tim333 8y ago
>Enforcement of the ULEZ will be based on the declared emissions of the vehicle rather than the age. Generally speaking, petrol cars that meet the emissions standards are those registered after 2005. However cars that meet the ULEZ standards have been available since 2000. So you can avoid it just by driving a fairly normal low polluting vehicle.

cannam 8y ago

I was surprised to find my small petrol car made in 2001 is exempt from the London charge. I realise the primary aim is to reduce diesel emissions, but it seems a bit sad that our expectations today can still be met by a 17-year-old petrol vehicle.

Brakenshire 8y ago
Diesels are terrible engines for city cars. They don’t in fact meet even the post scandal standards. Petrol is a fundamentally cleaner technology.

paganel 8y ago

This is basically a regressive tax as it will affect more the poorer segment of the population, meaning those that don’t have money to purchase newer cars (let alone EVs). The same applies to Paris and Northern Italy, where similar measures are in place. What this will also “accomplish” is that it will make these poorer people tourists in their own city/region, as the downtown areas will be more easily accessible by the “richer” people. As such, I expect revolt movements like the “gillets jaunes” protest now happening in France to become more widespread and more frequent.

jdavis703 8y ago
The French protests are about people outside of metro areas who don't have access to the same quality of transportation infrastructure. London has world-class infrastructure and many options for entering the city center without a car.
- paganel 8y ago
  That was the initial reason for the protest, yes, right now it’s a more general thing. And about London, afaik public transport is expensive as hell and once you get outside the M25 we’re talking trains and such, if I’m not mistaken, which are even more expensive and with a lot more time delays. So my point about this being a regressive tax stands, because it would be way cheaper for a blue collar English guy to commute using a 1000 pounds beater Vauxhall than to pay hundreds of pounds each month for public transport passes. But the current tax system prohibits this because that beater Vauxhall Corsa also pollutes the air breathed by the rich guy who pays 20 million pounds or more for a London condo, and it’s at that precise moment that you can hear that rich guy remember about “externalities” and “the tragedy of the commons”, but when his wealth manager invests in some copper company listed on the LSE that feeling about needing to cover for “externalities” totally goes above his head. Marx would have had a field day with the current political and societal situation in the West, it screams hypocrisy and “schizoid way of being” from a mile away.
  - esotericn 8y ago
    My car cost 300 quid (yes, three hundred GBP - about 1-2 weeks rent in London). It is exempt from the ULEZ charge, both the 2019 and 2021 one. It's really not a high bar to hit. It actually should be going way further and faster.