5 ms·

I agree with your assessment, but I don't agree that this ban is it. The headline really oversells it. The actual rule from the article's body is: "All petrol v

I agree with your assessment, but I don't agree that this ban is it. The headline really oversells it. The actual rule from the article's body is: "All petrol vehicles registered before 2000 and diesel ones registered before 2006 will be banned from the area, unless they are used by residents of the area or meet other exemptions." They only plan to ban enough polluting vehicles to "cut nitrogen dioxide levels by 23% in 2020", so this is a very far cry from EV only. I think this is a step in the right direction, but it seems like a convoluted one that could be a whole lot more ambitious.

Tade0 8y ago
I think they are managing outrage, so they need to pick a subset of cars that isn't that common anymore.
- ip26 8y ago
  And much more polluting. Emissions standards have tightened at least an order of magnitude every decade or so.
jgtrosh 8y ago
Isn't this similar to the variable ban that's been in Paris for the past year or so? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crit%27air https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crit%27air
- tinco 8y ago
  Yes, Amsterdam also has it. No diesels from before 2001 I think is the rule. It's going to be implemented in other cities in NL as well. My dad got kind of screwed because he converted an old van into a camper, for traveling around, and now he won't be able to use it to get into cities anymore. Of course it is objectively a good thing, especially when they implement the export restrictions so they won't all simply be offloaded to Africa.
  - mercer 8y ago
    It's already implemented in at least on other city (Utrecht), but only for the city center. As a diesel owner, it's a minor inconvenience whenever I visit the town. Most people I know live outside the zone.
  - Symbiote 8y ago
    There's an index to all the European cities with similar restrictions on http://urbanaccessregulations.eu/ http://urbanaccessregulations.eu/
  - pxtail 8y ago
    > Of course it is objectively a good thing, especially when they implement the export restrictions so they won't all simply be offloaded to Africa. Why export restrictions (especially to Africa) is a good thing? I think that it is quite opposite: * from looking at basic car sales statistics EV are basically non-existent in Africa, there is no infrastructure etc. (apart from fact that almost nobody could afford them) * 2000-ish cars are usually quite simple to repair, no advanced electronic etc. * producing new car probably will waste more resources and emit more pollution than using and repairing old one
- kweks 8y ago
  And yet inexplicably 2 stroke scooters / bikes are still legal, which contribute the most air and noise pollution. Still can't wrap my head around that.
  - briandear 8y ago
    Those 2-strokes are a menace. That they didn’t ban those demonstrates that the Paris “ban” is just political posturing rather than a desire for actual improvements. Not only are 2-strokes heavy polluters, they are the noisiest vehicles on the street.
    - walshemj 8y ago
      I thought they where all banned in the EU for several years now certainly the last vespa 2 stroke was seems to have been made in 2005.
      - lstodd 8y ago
        Well, you know, my vespa 50s from 1972 is still almost as good as new. 1990s 50cc japanese scooters are indestructible, esp. Hondas, as are later, early-2000s Yamaha/MBK 100cc models. They are not going anywhere until there appears a 80 kg, 12" wheel electric model that can go 100km on a single charge and carry two people at a cruise speed of 70-80 km/h. And charge from zero in at most 15 minutes. I love the smell of burning 2T oil in the morning.
        dzhiurgis 8y ago
        > They are not going anywhere until there appears ... Check NIU, they are getting close.
        walshemj 8y ago
        But your probably a scoterist who lovingly maintains and restores classic Vespa's and Lambrettas and only rides them in good weather. I believe the expensive version on the electric vespa can do 100km
- antpls 8y ago
  Worst than particle pollution on a day-to-day basis is the noise pollution. Big/Sport motor bikes and car horns should really be regulated inside cities, they make everything more stressful. They installed a new sound on public buses, which sounds like a nice old bell and is less noisy than the usual car horn. It should exist on all cars. Seriously, no one gives a f* than someone is stuck in traffic, and yet it alerts everyone on a 200 meters radius, which is many people in a city's density.
mcjiggerlog 8y ago
Just to be clear, anything that is not a hybrid or EV cannot drive through the centre unless going to a public parking garage. Licence plates are collected by the garages and cars entering the central area are monitored by cameras. So, anything that is not hybrid/EV is actually effectively banned.
- tom_mellior 8y ago
  I don't know why you are being downvoted, but providing a source would be welcome, I guess. Are you saying that it's OK for (certain) polluting vehicles to enter the zone to visit someone and park in a garage, but it's not OK for them to pass straight through the zone and out at the other end? That would be possible, but it sounds even more convoluted.
  - mcjiggerlog 8y ago
    Correct. I can only find sources in spanish. https://elpais.com/sociedad/2018/11/23/actualidad/1542985455_848171.html https://elpais.com/sociedad/2018/11/23/actualidad/1542985455... > Sí, se puede llegar al centro de la capital en vehículo privado. Los residentes tienen permiso para entrar y aparcar en su barrio. Los coches de los no residentes, siempre y cuando cuente con etiqueta ambiental, pueden entrar a Madrid Central. La clave es dónde aparca el vehículo: la medida prohíbe aparcar en superficie excepto a residentes o coches Eco o 0 emisiones. Los vehículos B y C podrán aparcar en cualquier parking de acceso público.
    - tom_mellior 8y ago
      This, only talks about parking in the zone but not about the case where a class B or C vehicle wants to pass through the zone without stopping.
      - mcjiggerlog 8y ago
        I live in this new Madrid Central zone - I promise that is truly the case. Here's another article that makes it a little clearer - http://www.telemadrid.es/madrid-central/Madrid-Central-preguntas-respuestas-0-2067993193--20181116105632.html http://www.telemadrid.es/madrid-central/Madrid-Central-pregu... No vivo en el centro. ¿Puedo circular? Depende de varias circunstancias y del etiquetado de tu vehículo: * Sí, aunque no seas residente, siempre que tu vehículo sea 0 emisiones o ECO. * Si tu vehículo tiene la categoría C o B, sólo puedes acceder para estacionar en aparcamientos de rotación. * Si tienes movilidad reducida, también puedes acceder, independientemente de la etiqueta.
angarg12 8y ago
It's a baby step, but that was to be expected. You can't realistically expect everyone to switch to an EV overnight, but this kind of plans will accelerate adoption, which AFAIK isn't going so well in Spain. If this experiment works, then new, more aggressive ones will be put in place elsewhere.
biztos 8y ago
That implies that the impact of "non-resident" vehicles is much higher than that of "resident" vehicles in aggregate. That seems intuitive for a big capital city... but would it be the same for all neighborhoods?
- greglindahl 8y ago
  It doesn't imply that at all -- it appears to be a political choice. Many cities give free parking passes to residents of the city center to park in their local neighborhood, for example.

Tade0 8y ago

I think they are managing outrage, so they need to pick a subset of cars that isn't that common anymore.

ip26 8y ago
And much more polluting. Emissions standards have tightened at least an order of magnitude every decade or so.

jgtrosh 8y ago

Isn't this similar to the variable ban that's been in Paris for the past year or so? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crit%27air https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crit%27air

tinco 8y ago
Yes, Amsterdam also has it. No diesels from before 2001 I think is the rule. It's going to be implemented in other cities in NL as well. My dad got kind of screwed because he converted an old van into a camper, for traveling around, and now he won't be able to use it to get into cities anymore. Of course it is objectively a good thing, especially when they implement the export restrictions so they won't all simply be offloaded to Africa.
- mercer 8y ago
  It's already implemented in at least on other city (Utrecht), but only for the city center. As a diesel owner, it's a minor inconvenience whenever I visit the town. Most people I know live outside the zone.
- Symbiote 8y ago
  There's an index to all the European cities with similar restrictions on http://urbanaccessregulations.eu/ http://urbanaccessregulations.eu/
- pxtail 8y ago
  > Of course it is objectively a good thing, especially when they implement the export restrictions so they won't all simply be offloaded to Africa. Why export restrictions (especially to Africa) is a good thing? I think that it is quite opposite: * from looking at basic car sales statistics EV are basically non-existent in Africa, there is no infrastructure etc. (apart from fact that almost nobody could afford them) * 2000-ish cars are usually quite simple to repair, no advanced electronic etc. * producing new car probably will waste more resources and emit more pollution than using and repairing old one
kweks 8y ago
And yet inexplicably 2 stroke scooters / bikes are still legal, which contribute the most air and noise pollution. Still can't wrap my head around that.
- briandear 8y ago
  Those 2-strokes are a menace. That they didn’t ban those demonstrates that the Paris “ban” is just political posturing rather than a desire for actual improvements. Not only are 2-strokes heavy polluters, they are the noisiest vehicles on the street.
  - walshemj 8y ago
    I thought they where all banned in the EU for several years now certainly the last vespa 2 stroke was seems to have been made in 2005.
    - lstodd 8y ago
      Well, you know, my vespa 50s from 1972 is still almost as good as new. 1990s 50cc japanese scooters are indestructible, esp. Hondas, as are later, early-2000s Yamaha/MBK 100cc models. They are not going anywhere until there appears a 80 kg, 12" wheel electric model that can go 100km on a single charge and carry two people at a cruise speed of 70-80 km/h. And charge from zero in at most 15 minutes. I love the smell of burning 2T oil in the morning.
      - dzhiurgis 8y ago
        > They are not going anywhere until there appears ... Check NIU, they are getting close.
      - walshemj 8y ago
        But your probably a scoterist who lovingly maintains and restores classic Vespa's and Lambrettas and only rides them in good weather. I believe the expensive version on the electric vespa can do 100km
antpls 8y ago
Worst than particle pollution on a day-to-day basis is the noise pollution. Big/Sport motor bikes and car horns should really be regulated inside cities, they make everything more stressful. They installed a new sound on public buses, which sounds like a nice old bell and is less noisy than the usual car horn. It should exist on all cars. Seriously, no one gives a f* than someone is stuck in traffic, and yet it alerts everyone on a 200 meters radius, which is many people in a city's density.

mcjiggerlog 8y ago

Just to be clear, anything that is not a hybrid or EV cannot drive through the centre unless going to a public parking garage. Licence plates are collected by the garages and cars entering the central area are monitored by cameras. So, anything that is not hybrid/EV is actually effectively banned.

tom_mellior 8y ago
I don't know why you are being downvoted, but providing a source would be welcome, I guess. Are you saying that it's OK for (certain) polluting vehicles to enter the zone to visit someone and park in a garage, but it's not OK for them to pass straight through the zone and out at the other end? That would be possible, but it sounds even more convoluted.
- mcjiggerlog 8y ago
  Correct. I can only find sources in spanish. https://elpais.com/sociedad/2018/11/23/actualidad/1542985455_848171.html https://elpais.com/sociedad/2018/11/23/actualidad/1542985455... > Sí, se puede llegar al centro de la capital en vehículo privado. Los residentes tienen permiso para entrar y aparcar en su barrio. Los coches de los no residentes, siempre y cuando cuente con etiqueta ambiental, pueden entrar a Madrid Central. La clave es dónde aparca el vehículo: la medida prohíbe aparcar en superficie excepto a residentes o coches Eco o 0 emisiones. Los vehículos B y C podrán aparcar en cualquier parking de acceso público.
  - tom_mellior 8y ago
    This, only talks about parking in the zone but not about the case where a class B or C vehicle wants to pass through the zone without stopping.
    - mcjiggerlog 8y ago
      I live in this new Madrid Central zone - I promise that is truly the case. Here's another article that makes it a little clearer - http://www.telemadrid.es/madrid-central/Madrid-Central-preguntas-respuestas-0-2067993193--20181116105632.html http://www.telemadrid.es/madrid-central/Madrid-Central-pregu... No vivo en el centro. ¿Puedo circular? Depende de varias circunstancias y del etiquetado de tu vehículo: * Sí, aunque no seas residente, siempre que tu vehículo sea 0 emisiones o ECO. * Si tu vehículo tiene la categoría C o B, sólo puedes acceder para estacionar en aparcamientos de rotación. * Si tienes movilidad reducida, también puedes acceder, independientemente de la etiqueta.

angarg12 8y ago

It's a baby step, but that was to be expected. You can't realistically expect everyone to switch to an EV overnight, but this kind of plans will accelerate adoption, which AFAIK isn't going so well in Spain. If this experiment works, then new, more aggressive ones will be put in place elsewhere.

biztos 8y ago

That implies that the impact of "non-resident" vehicles is much higher than that of "resident" vehicles in aggregate. That seems intuitive for a big capital city... but would it be the same for all neighborhoods?

greglindahl 8y ago
It doesn't imply that at all -- it appears to be a political choice. Many cities give free parking passes to residents of the city center to park in their local neighborhood, for example.