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A while back I told my friends "in the next 5 years a major European city will ban non EV. And if it's a success, the flood gates will open and there will be no

A while back I told my friends "in the next 5 years a major European city will ban non EV. And if it's a success, the flood gates will open and there will be no way back". I'm surprised (and pleased) that this initiative is being implemented in Spain, since the infrastructure for supporting EVs there is less developed than other places (say, Germany). I sincerely wish it turns out to be a success, which would quickly accelerate similar initiatives in other places.

pjmlp 8y ago
The car lobby is very strong here (Germany). And guess what, one of the punishments for them regarding diesel (selling cars at discount to affected consumers), turned out to become yet another profit, because in the end they just sell more cars anyway. Mercedes has ads across the country how they are just a nice company and want to help the planet by giving the opportunity to Euro 4/5 car owners to exchange their cars at affordable prices, while avoiding to mention why they are actually offering it.
- cmrdporcupine 8y ago
  It's a strange twist that the only country that punished VW/Audi group for dieselgate with sanctions that had any kind of teeth was the U.S. -- not exactly known for its environmentalist tendencies. There VW was forced to pay for a huge EV charging infrastructure in addition to the vehicle buyback. In Canada, the gov't did basically nothing and it was only a class action lawsuit that accomplished much, and the deal we got was far less than what they got in the U.S. Still, the money I got from dieselgate buyback paid for most of my Chevy Volt. So that's something.
  - thefounder 8y ago
    Well that may prove it was a political motivated punishment (for the US at least) not related to the environment damage. VW got fined in Europe (i.e few billions) as well but not as much as in the US.
    - jacobolus 8y ago
      > political motivated punishment You mean, they didn’t like the “politics” of a company installing devices in their cars whose only purpose was to cheat emissions tests, and then afterward lying about it? Yes, it’s not really so much about the “environment” per se, and more about the criminal cheating followed by criminal coverup.
      - mikey_p 8y ago
        I think the unsaid assumption, although it is near impossible to prove, is that this was motivated by desire to punish foreign conglomerates and provide a nice advantage to domestic producers. While I'm sure this is near impossible to prove I would be really surprised if lobbyists for the US auto industry weren't trying to get as many sanctions as possible for VW.
    - VintageCool 8y ago
      The US doesn't really have a pro-deisel lobby, so they were able to impose punishments without internal political pushback.
  - Pulcinella 8y ago
    not exactly known for its environmentalist tendencies. I think that for once, the US regulations are stricter than the EU ones. Diesel emissions standards are higher in the US than Europe.
  - TheForumTroll 8y ago
    Not much of a twist really since Germany (the state) owns part of VW and they also want to protect jobs.
    - netsharc 8y ago
      https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/uk-france-and-germany-lobbied-for-flawed-car-emissions-tests-documents-reveal https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/uk-franc... Yeah, the governments are either not thinking about the long-term survival of the population and the planet, or they would rather just placate their citizenry by making sure they have jobs. Because a jobless populace will vote you out of the office, so, fuck the environment?
    - majewsky 8y ago
      Nitpick: Not Germany, but Lower Saxony (a German state). They own 20% of VW and have a special case in the law that gives them special veto rights on (some?) supervisory board decisions.
- wongarsu 8y ago
  Yet German cities have serious problems staying within EU regulations for particulate matter, and with the health risks of suspended particulate matter becoming increasingly more evident those regulations won't go away. Pushing non-EV vehicles out of cities isn't the only viable measure, but it is by far the easiest and quickest and has very positive side effects for quality of life in the city. And with VW getting more serious about EVs the lobbying may well reverse direction in a few years. After all once you sell an attractive EV lineup, getting every city dweller to replace their petrol car with an EV is great for your bottom line.
tom_mellior 8y ago
I agree with your assessment, but I don't agree that this ban is it. The headline really oversells it. The actual rule from the article's body is: "All petrol vehicles registered before 2000 and diesel ones registered before 2006 will be banned from the area, unless they are used by residents of the area or meet other exemptions." They only plan to ban enough polluting vehicles to "cut nitrogen dioxide levels by 23% in 2020", so this is a very far cry from EV only. I think this is a step in the right direction, but it seems like a convoluted one that could be a whole lot more ambitious.
- Tade0 8y ago
  I think they are managing outrage, so they need to pick a subset of cars that isn't that common anymore.
  - ip26 8y ago
    And much more polluting. Emissions standards have tightened at least an order of magnitude every decade or so.
- jgtrosh 8y ago
  Isn't this similar to the variable ban that's been in Paris for the past year or so? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crit%27air https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crit%27air
  - tinco 8y ago
    Yes, Amsterdam also has it. No diesels from before 2001 I think is the rule. It's going to be implemented in other cities in NL as well. My dad got kind of screwed because he converted an old van into a camper, for traveling around, and now he won't be able to use it to get into cities anymore. Of course it is objectively a good thing, especially when they implement the export restrictions so they won't all simply be offloaded to Africa.
    - mercer 8y ago
nextos 8y ago
I'm not so surprised. Some mid-sized cities in Spain (e.g. Pontevedra, Oviedo) have banned all cars from most major streets since the mid 1990s. They are remarkably focused on pedestrians. You can walk anywhere. Actually, I'd say the ban on those cities I mention is in some ways more restrictive than what was just implemented in Madrid. It's much simpler to accomplish due to their size, though.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
black-tea 8y ago
I'd love for that to be true. But I've thought the same thing about other laws and the floodgates never opened. For example, in 2001 Portugal decriminalised all drugs. The obvious thing happened: the drug situation slightly improved. But more than 15 years later not one country has followed. Still, I would like to share your optimism. Let's rid our cities of cars completely.

pjmlp 8y ago

The car lobby is very strong here (Germany). And guess what, one of the punishments for them regarding diesel (selling cars at discount to affected consumers), turned out to become yet another profit, because in the end they just sell more cars anyway. Mercedes has ads across the country how they are just a nice company and want to help the planet by giving the opportunity to Euro 4/5 car owners to exchange their cars at affordable prices, while avoiding to mention why they are actually offering it.

cmrdporcupine 8y ago
It's a strange twist that the only country that punished VW/Audi group for dieselgate with sanctions that had any kind of teeth was the U.S. -- not exactly known for its environmentalist tendencies. There VW was forced to pay for a huge EV charging infrastructure in addition to the vehicle buyback. In Canada, the gov't did basically nothing and it was only a class action lawsuit that accomplished much, and the deal we got was far less than what they got in the U.S. Still, the money I got from dieselgate buyback paid for most of my Chevy Volt. So that's something.
- thefounder 8y ago
  Well that may prove it was a political motivated punishment (for the US at least) not related to the environment damage. VW got fined in Europe (i.e few billions) as well but not as much as in the US.
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    > political motivated punishment You mean, they didn’t like the “politics” of a company installing devices in their cars whose only purpose was to cheat emissions tests, and then afterward lying about it? Yes, it’s not really so much about the “environment” per se, and more about the criminal cheating followed by criminal coverup.
    - mikey_p 8y ago
      I think the unsaid assumption, although it is near impossible to prove, is that this was motivated by desire to punish foreign conglomerates and provide a nice advantage to domestic producers. While I'm sure this is near impossible to prove I would be really surprised if lobbyists for the US auto industry weren't trying to get as many sanctions as possible for VW.
  - VintageCool 8y ago
    The US doesn't really have a pro-deisel lobby, so they were able to impose punishments without internal political pushback.
- Pulcinella 8y ago
  not exactly known for its environmentalist tendencies. I think that for once, the US regulations are stricter than the EU ones. Diesel emissions standards are higher in the US than Europe.
- TheForumTroll 8y ago
  Not much of a twist really since Germany (the state) owns part of VW and they also want to protect jobs.
  - netsharc 8y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/uk-france-and-germany-lobbied-for-flawed-car-emissions-tests-documents-reveal https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/uk-franc... Yeah, the governments are either not thinking about the long-term survival of the population and the planet, or they would rather just placate their citizenry by making sure they have jobs. Because a jobless populace will vote you out of the office, so, fuck the environment?
  - majewsky 8y ago
    Nitpick: Not Germany, but Lower Saxony (a German state). They own 20% of VW and have a special case in the law that gives them special veto rights on (some?) supervisory board decisions.
wongarsu 8y ago
Yet German cities have serious problems staying within EU regulations for particulate matter, and with the health risks of suspended particulate matter becoming increasingly more evident those regulations won't go away. Pushing non-EV vehicles out of cities isn't the only viable measure, but it is by far the easiest and quickest and has very positive side effects for quality of life in the city. And with VW getting more serious about EVs the lobbying may well reverse direction in a few years. After all once you sell an attractive EV lineup, getting every city dweller to replace their petrol car with an EV is great for your bottom line.

tom_mellior 8y ago

I agree with your assessment, but I don't agree that this ban is it. The headline really oversells it. The actual rule from the article's body is: "All petrol vehicles registered before 2000 and diesel ones registered before 2006 will be banned from the area, unless they are used by residents of the area or meet other exemptions." They only plan to ban enough polluting vehicles to "cut nitrogen dioxide levels by 23% in 2020", so this is a very far cry from EV only. I think this is a step in the right direction, but it seems like a convoluted one that could be a whole lot more ambitious.

Tade0 8y ago
I think they are managing outrage, so they need to pick a subset of cars that isn't that common anymore.
- ip26 8y ago
  And much more polluting. Emissions standards have tightened at least an order of magnitude every decade or so.
jgtrosh 8y ago
Isn't this similar to the variable ban that's been in Paris for the past year or so? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crit%27air https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crit%27air
- tinco 8y ago
  Yes, Amsterdam also has it. No diesels from before 2001 I think is the rule. It's going to be implemented in other cities in NL as well. My dad got kind of screwed because he converted an old van into a camper, for traveling around, and now he won't be able to use it to get into cities anymore. Of course it is objectively a good thing, especially when they implement the export restrictions so they won't all simply be offloaded to Africa.
  - mercer 8y ago

nextos 8y ago

I'm not so surprised. Some mid-sized cities in Spain (e.g. Pontevedra, Oviedo) have banned all cars from most major streets since the mid 1990s. They are remarkably focused on pedestrians. You can walk anywhere. Actually, I'd say the ban on those cities I mention is in some ways more restrictive than what was just implemented in Madrid. It's much simpler to accomplish due to their size, though.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

black-tea 8y ago

I'd love for that to be true. But I've thought the same thing about other laws and the floodgates never opened. For example, in 2001 Portugal decriminalised all drugs. The obvious thing happened: the drug situation slightly improved. But more than 15 years later not one country has followed. Still, I would like to share your optimism. Let's rid our cities of cars completely.