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All our evolved natural systems are collapsing, and are being replaced by crude early-stage technological ones. "Fighting" each as a separate policy issue is a

All our evolved natural systems are collapsing, and are being replaced by crude early-stage technological ones. "Fighting" each as a separate policy issue is a continuation of the fluffy-minded & neurotic economic/business attitude which cannot cope with facing physical reality. We're almost certainly stuffed. This was probably always inevitable, because the naked ape likely lacks whatever capacities might be needed to operate at planetary scale. But we'll never know, because we refused to even give the alternatives a try. Well, too late now.

robotbikes 8y ago
It is certainly hard to not react with extreme cynicism to the daily onslaught of negative feedback from determining our world is suffering and good portions of are dying. But we need to as entities capable of thought and planning attempt to try new ways of coordinating our activities. We built a global communication network that allows us to talk in theory to any other living being on the planet with minimal effort and we don't know how to use it yet. Perhaps we need to really work to transform our society to disrupt the shackles that bind us to activities that are harmful instead of trading human bosses for algorithm as bosses. I can't speak for everyone and it's very easy to disparage others as uncaring, ignorant or incapable of action but I do think we need to try to save this planet from ecological collapse.
- crispinb 8y ago
  The ecological collapses are now occurring at such a rapid pace that it would require a turnaround of unprecendented ambition, starting right now. The race isn't exactly against natural systems breaking down - that's a process that's going to continue for millenia. It's against the fragility of our own societies, built on human constitutions designed by evolution to operate effectively at far smaller scales. Tiny perturbations (compared to what's coming) cause major social convulsions (eg. Europe 2015). What do you think will happen when billions of climate change refugees flood the world? When the first agricultural collapses occur? Wars will sweep the world, what exists of global cooperation will cease, and a positive feedback loop ensues.
speedplane 8y ago
Can I take the cynical extreme long term view for a second? No matter how much we destroy our planet, it's damage will be a blink of an eye in cosmological terms. Even if we nearly exterminate all other species, plenty of genetic material will survive by dumb chance alone, and in a few million years there will be a whole other ecosystem/society to worry about. Earth doesn't care about biodiversity, beauty, or longevity, even if we mess it up, it'll be able to recover in its lifetime.
- crispinb 8y ago
  We depend on the evolved complex systems that sustain a planetary-scale agricultural society. Taking a sufficiently large-scale view, perhaps not even the survival of the planet "matters" (surely there are other planets? other ecologies?). But that's no-one's actual viewpoint. We live here.
- Espressosaurus 8y ago
  It's a long view, sure, but it's one that doesn't include humans. Most people would like humans to be around. The conditions under which we live won't be in play if the fisheries all collapse and the clathrate gun fires.
  - speedplane 8y ago
    People want people around. People want endangered species around. However, civilization has been around for roughly 20,000 years, and modern civilization for roughly 100 years. If earth was a person and we all lived on it's tummy, everything humans ever existed would still be an eye-blick.
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      >If earth was a person and we all lived on it's tummy, everything humans ever existed would still be an eye-blick. This does not make any sense to me.
    - spiritcat 8y ago

robotbikes 8y ago

It is certainly hard to not react with extreme cynicism to the daily onslaught of negative feedback from determining our world is suffering and good portions of are dying. But we need to as entities capable of thought and planning attempt to try new ways of coordinating our activities. We built a global communication network that allows us to talk in theory to any other living being on the planet with minimal effort and we don't know how to use it yet. Perhaps we need to really work to transform our society to disrupt the shackles that bind us to activities that are harmful instead of trading human bosses for algorithm as bosses. I can't speak for everyone and it's very easy to disparage others as uncaring, ignorant or incapable of action but I do think we need to try to save this planet from ecological collapse.

crispinb 8y ago
The ecological collapses are now occurring at such a rapid pace that it would require a turnaround of unprecendented ambition, starting right now. The race isn't exactly against natural systems breaking down - that's a process that's going to continue for millenia. It's against the fragility of our own societies, built on human constitutions designed by evolution to operate effectively at far smaller scales. Tiny perturbations (compared to what's coming) cause major social convulsions (eg. Europe 2015). What do you think will happen when billions of climate change refugees flood the world? When the first agricultural collapses occur? Wars will sweep the world, what exists of global cooperation will cease, and a positive feedback loop ensues.

speedplane 8y ago

Can I take the cynical extreme long term view for a second? No matter how much we destroy our planet, it's damage will be a blink of an eye in cosmological terms. Even if we nearly exterminate all other species, plenty of genetic material will survive by dumb chance alone, and in a few million years there will be a whole other ecosystem/society to worry about. Earth doesn't care about biodiversity, beauty, or longevity, even if we mess it up, it'll be able to recover in its lifetime.

crispinb 8y ago
We depend on the evolved complex systems that sustain a planetary-scale agricultural society. Taking a sufficiently large-scale view, perhaps not even the survival of the planet "matters" (surely there are other planets? other ecologies?). But that's no-one's actual viewpoint. We live here.
Espressosaurus 8y ago
It's a long view, sure, but it's one that doesn't include humans. Most people would like humans to be around. The conditions under which we live won't be in play if the fisheries all collapse and the clathrate gun fires.
- speedplane 8y ago
  People want people around. People want endangered species around. However, civilization has been around for roughly 20,000 years, and modern civilization for roughly 100 years. If earth was a person and we all lived on it's tummy, everything humans ever existed would still be an eye-blick.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    >If earth was a person and we all lived on it's tummy, everything humans ever existed would still be an eye-blick. This does not make any sense to me.
  - spiritcat 8y ago