7 ms·

I think the scary thing about nation states trying to covertly influence each other is that many of these states are supposed to be allies, or at least friendly

I think the scary thing about nation states trying to covertly influence each other is that many of these states are supposed to be allies, or at least friendly. They certainly are not at war. I naively believed the Cold War was over, obviously it has only changed its methods, to where influence over a countries people is the weapon and it's being used widely.

chrisseaton 8y ago
Why do you say ‘nation states’? The UK is the classic example of something which is not a nation state.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  Give it a few years and the UK will no longer exist. The largest remainder will most likely be called England and the rest will have broken away.
  - Veen 8y ago
    That's possible, but I don't think it's likely. Scotland voted to stay in the UK when given the choice. That choice is not likely to be given again in the near future. Wales wouldn't flourish on its own. Northern Ireland, maybe, but also unlikely -- plenty of Unionists will fight to the death to remain part of the UK.
    - jacquesm 8y ago
      > Scotland voted to stay in the UK when given the choice. That was before the 'leave' vote.
      - Veen 8y ago
        Yes, and Scotland may want to leave the UK and join the EU on its own terms, but that is almost certain to fail. Many EU countries, especially Spain, have regional nationalist movements. They do not want to encourage regional partitions by letting breakaway regions join the EU. Scotland is better off in the UK than outside on its own.
        walshemj 8y ago
        Is there an equivalent of the act of union in Spain which is the argument made by the SNP to justify independence.
        Veen 8y ago
        Catalonia has been part of Spain since Aragon and Castile were united in the 1500s, longer ago than the Act of Union. But there has been consistent support for independence for centuries, including terrorist activity in recent decades. The Catalan independence movement has a lot of support in Catalan -- last year the Catalan regional government unilaterally held an illegal referendum on independence. The independence movement won, the Catalan executive declared independence, and Spain was forced to impose direct rule. Catalan independence is a bigger headache for Madrid than Scottish independence is for London.
        harperlee 8y ago
        > The independence movement won To provide more context for readers not familiarised with this: most of the people that would have voted “No” didn’t show up to vote because it was generally understood (by the noers at least) to be an illegal and non-legitimate vote and they did not want to legitimate it by voting. In those circumstances it is quite easy to get a “Yes”, but it is less clear that it is a “Win”.
        Veen 8y ago
        Right, turnout for the referendum was very low. But I don't imagine Madrid wants to add fuel to the fire by encouraging other separatist movements, including Scottish Nationalism (unless they want to give the Brits a poke in the eye for Gibralter, which is unlikely). There's also the Basque region.
      - guiriduro 8y ago
        < That was before the 'leave' vote. And more specifically, it meant that the decision was a Scotland in (pre-EU leave vote) the UK an EU member state, whereas a then vote to leave the Union of the UK would also have meant leaving the EU (and having to apply to rejoin, without any guarantees.) No wonder it was more attractive. What then happened was that the UK (primarily, England) voted to "Brexit" leave the EU - so the very electoral calculation on which a "remain in the United Kingdom and EU" scottish vote was made, was turned on its head. If the UK does finally exit the EU, the Scots can very well say they were cheated and demand another vote.
        Veen 8y ago
        Scottish Nationalists can demand another vote, but they won't get it as long as the Tories are in power. In as much as you can take Corbyn at his word, he is not in favour either, and nor are many in the Labour party. It might happen if the Scottish Parliament votes for it, but it's still not a sure thing to pass. Besides which, it isn't wise: Scotland can't pay its way and depends on EU and British (English) money. Out of the EU, Scotland would be in a worse economic position if it leaves the UK, and there's no guarantee that it would be allowed to join the EU in the near future: many EU members with a veto aren't keen to encourage separatist movements.

chrisseaton 8y ago

Why do you say ‘nation states’? The UK is the classic example of something which is not a nation state.

jacquesm 8y ago
Give it a few years and the UK will no longer exist. The largest remainder will most likely be called England and the rest will have broken away.
- Veen 8y ago
  That's possible, but I don't think it's likely. Scotland voted to stay in the UK when given the choice. That choice is not likely to be given again in the near future. Wales wouldn't flourish on its own. Northern Ireland, maybe, but also unlikely -- plenty of Unionists will fight to the death to remain part of the UK.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    > Scotland voted to stay in the UK when given the choice. That was before the 'leave' vote.
    - Veen 8y ago
      Yes, and Scotland may want to leave the UK and join the EU on its own terms, but that is almost certain to fail. Many EU countries, especially Spain, have regional nationalist movements. They do not want to encourage regional partitions by letting breakaway regions join the EU. Scotland is better off in the UK than outside on its own.
      - walshemj 8y ago
        Is there an equivalent of the act of union in Spain which is the argument made by the SNP to justify independence.
        Veen 8y ago
        Catalonia has been part of Spain since Aragon and Castile were united in the 1500s, longer ago than the Act of Union. But there has been consistent support for independence for centuries, including terrorist activity in recent decades. The Catalan independence movement has a lot of support in Catalan -- last year the Catalan regional government unilaterally held an illegal referendum on independence. The independence movement won, the Catalan executive declared independence, and Spain was forced to impose direct rule. Catalan independence is a bigger headache for Madrid than Scottish independence is for London.
        harperlee 8y ago
        > The independence movement won To provide more context for readers not familiarised with this: most of the people that would have voted “No” didn’t show up to vote because it was generally understood (by the noers at least) to be an illegal and non-legitimate vote and they did not want to legitimate it by voting. In those circumstances it is quite easy to get a “Yes”, but it is less clear that it is a “Win”.
        Veen 8y ago
        Right, turnout for the referendum was very low. But I don't imagine Madrid wants to add fuel to the fire by encouraging other separatist movements, including Scottish Nationalism (unless they want to give the Brits a poke in the eye for Gibralter, which is unlikely). There's also the Basque region.
    - guiriduro 8y ago
      < That was before the 'leave' vote. And more specifically, it meant that the decision was a Scotland in (pre-EU leave vote) the UK an EU member state, whereas a then vote to leave the Union of the UK would also have meant leaving the EU (and having to apply to rejoin, without any guarantees.) No wonder it was more attractive. What then happened was that the UK (primarily, England) voted to "Brexit" leave the EU - so the very electoral calculation on which a "remain in the United Kingdom and EU" scottish vote was made, was turned on its head. If the UK does finally exit the EU, the Scots can very well say they were cheated and demand another vote.
      - Veen 8y ago
        Scottish Nationalists can demand another vote, but they won't get it as long as the Tories are in power. In as much as you can take Corbyn at his word, he is not in favour either, and nor are many in the Labour party. It might happen if the Scottish Parliament votes for it, but it's still not a sure thing to pass. Besides which, it isn't wise: Scotland can't pay its way and depends on EU and British (English) money. Out of the EU, Scotland would be in a worse economic position if it leaves the UK, and there's no guarantee that it would be allowed to join the EU in the near future: many EU members with a veto aren't keen to encourage separatist movements.