4 ms·

It seems like Big Tech has switched over to amassing data and behavior manipulation ("engagement", etc.) as their main business model. I think that Microsoft di

It seems like Big Tech has switched over to amassing data and behavior manipulation ("engagement", etc.) as their main business model. I think that Microsoft didn't feel threatening because they still mostly just sold a product. I feel like we as a society haven't really entirely got a handle on this yet. Things emerge, like trusts, and it takes a while for people to understand what has happened. But, with things like Windows 10 telemetry you can't turn off, and Windows turning into a service, they've gotten back on board with how Big Tech runs these days. This pattern seems to hold really well. The giants mostly amass data and manipulate people. If they don't do this sort of thing, they don't really seem that threatening, regardless of their size. HP, IBM, Dell. Apple seems interesting, as a hold-out on just selling a product, but in the meta game, just direct manipulation of people really looks like a step up, and I don't predict they'll continue as anything approaching a "scary tech giant" in coming decades unless they change like Microsoft did.

userbinator 8y ago
But, with things like Windows 10 telemetry you can't turn off, and Windows turning into a service, they've gotten back on board with how Big Tech runs these days. Yes, I can confidently say that I miss the old Microsoft. They were strongly closed-source and proprietary (not that it didn't stop people from understanding how things worked anyway...), but they did not do the sort of data collection, behavioural analysis and advert-driven manipulation that the others were doing, and still highly valued backward-compatibility and stability. Now they're going the same route as the other tech giants, silently collecting information while also open-sourcing a lot of other things almost as a form of distraction/diversion. You could consider the fact that they're open-sourcing something to mean they're not interested in selling that as a product anymore, and that's because their profit is coming from somewhere else.
- belltaco 8y ago
  They tried to make the public care with the gmail man campaign. https://www.theverge.com/microsoft/2012/2/2/2766215/gmail-man-video-microsoft-google-privacy https://www.theverge.com/microsoft/2012/2/2/2766215/gmail-ma... It was flagged dead on HN because the perception was "do no evil' Google good, M$ bad. They tried harder later on with the somewhat cringy Scroogled campaign and found out the public didnt care while Google laughed all the way to the bank while increasing data tracking, collection and usage. And here we are. Edit: Found a thread discussing it, with one top 10 by karma HN user explaining why they flagged it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3544309 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3544309
- hakfoo 8y ago
  The interesting thing is, how battle-proven is the current ad/monitoring obsession as an actual business? It's trendy, but not every successful firm has to-- or should-- get on board. Microsoft's classic businesses are pretty comprehensible. Software (boxes or as a service) and cloud services are pretty solid business models. They don't require unrealistic expectations or gimmickry to work. There might be shifts within that market (the MSRP of a browser is 0, and that of an OS is plummeting towards 0 quickly), but you can realistically say "I want to sell a software package" or "I want to run a cloud service provider" and make a business case without fantastic assumptions. In contrast, much of the value of Google and Facebook and similar companies is based on anticipation of the future value of those big data stores, a largely unproven asset. Will consumers reach an "uncanny valley" moment for personalized marketing messages, resulting in a downturn in click-throughs? Will advertisers always be willing to pay a premium for improved targeting? I could see a competing product offering spray-and-pray banner ads with .01% click-through rates at a few cents per click outperforming hyper-targeted ads that draw a 5% click-through rate at several dollars a click. Will they be able to successfully retain, grow, and monetize their data hoard after the inevitable regulatory backlash? (I could imagine a sufficient data breach resulting in regulations that make the GDPR look small potatoes)
- srcmap 8y ago
  I find windows firewall is very good at blocking programs/processes from accessing the network. By configure it to block svchost.exe from access network except 192.168.0.0/16, the windows 10 system service can have very light load on my laptop. Combine with ProcessExplorer to monitor various processes's network traffic, I can make my laptop where the only two programs can access the internet are Firefox and Chrome. Once every 6-9 months, when I feel like it, I do release the svchost.exe from the jail for a day to free win10 to get the latest security update. With this setup, I can make the Win10 home edition laptop to have system uptime of 6 months or more.
- tim333 8y ago
  Likewise. I was a happy user of Windows XP and 7. The way you can't control what windows 10 is up to is kind of annoying and I've gone to Mac.
- jammygit 8y ago
  10 years ago I complained about Microsoft, but basically was happy with windows and recommended it to people. Now I'm just creeped out by windows. I really wish they had left the ads and data collection out, the trust is just gone.
farazzz 8y ago
I didn’t think much of the telemetry at first, but when they added advertisements between games of minesweeper was when they went too far...
hodgesrm 8y ago
How does your model for the fact that a lot of MS growth is coming from things like Azure? [0] This is pure IaaS (compute/storage/networking + managed services) and it's increasingly popular. To the extent there's telemetry involved it's mostly to manage services effectively. [0] https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/07/20/microsoft-corporations-impressive-growth-in-5-metr.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/07/20/microsoft-corporat...
gaius 8y ago
But, with things like Windows 10 telemetry you can't turn off, and Windows turning into a service, they've gotten back on board with how Big Tech runs these days. They sort of have no choice but to play in this space given that Google does, they can’t just surrender that territory. But if the “attention economy” went away tomorrow MS core business would be fine, how much actual revenue do we think they even make from Windows 10 telemetry? Compared to Azure and O365?

userbinator 8y ago

But, with things like Windows 10 telemetry you can't turn off, and Windows turning into a service, they've gotten back on board with how Big Tech runs these days. Yes, I can confidently say that I miss the old Microsoft. They were strongly closed-source and proprietary (not that it didn't stop people from understanding how things worked anyway...), but they did not do the sort of data collection, behavioural analysis and advert-driven manipulation that the others were doing, and still highly valued backward-compatibility and stability. Now they're going the same route as the other tech giants, silently collecting information while also open-sourcing a lot of other things almost as a form of distraction/diversion. You could consider the fact that they're open-sourcing something to mean they're not interested in selling that as a product anymore, and that's because their profit is coming from somewhere else.

belltaco 8y ago
They tried to make the public care with the gmail man campaign. https://www.theverge.com/microsoft/2012/2/2/2766215/gmail-man-video-microsoft-google-privacy https://www.theverge.com/microsoft/2012/2/2/2766215/gmail-ma... It was flagged dead on HN because the perception was "do no evil' Google good, M$ bad. They tried harder later on with the somewhat cringy Scroogled campaign and found out the public didnt care while Google laughed all the way to the bank while increasing data tracking, collection and usage. And here we are. Edit: Found a thread discussing it, with one top 10 by karma HN user explaining why they flagged it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3544309 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3544309
hakfoo 8y ago
The interesting thing is, how battle-proven is the current ad/monitoring obsession as an actual business? It's trendy, but not every successful firm has to-- or should-- get on board. Microsoft's classic businesses are pretty comprehensible. Software (boxes or as a service) and cloud services are pretty solid business models. They don't require unrealistic expectations or gimmickry to work. There might be shifts within that market (the MSRP of a browser is 0, and that of an OS is plummeting towards 0 quickly), but you can realistically say "I want to sell a software package" or "I want to run a cloud service provider" and make a business case without fantastic assumptions. In contrast, much of the value of Google and Facebook and similar companies is based on anticipation of the future value of those big data stores, a largely unproven asset. Will consumers reach an "uncanny valley" moment for personalized marketing messages, resulting in a downturn in click-throughs? Will advertisers always be willing to pay a premium for improved targeting? I could see a competing product offering spray-and-pray banner ads with .01% click-through rates at a few cents per click outperforming hyper-targeted ads that draw a 5% click-through rate at several dollars a click. Will they be able to successfully retain, grow, and monetize their data hoard after the inevitable regulatory backlash? (I could imagine a sufficient data breach resulting in regulations that make the GDPR look small potatoes)
srcmap 8y ago
I find windows firewall is very good at blocking programs/processes from accessing the network. By configure it to block svchost.exe from access network except 192.168.0.0/16, the windows 10 system service can have very light load on my laptop. Combine with ProcessExplorer to monitor various processes's network traffic, I can make my laptop where the only two programs can access the internet are Firefox and Chrome. Once every 6-9 months, when I feel like it, I do release the svchost.exe from the jail for a day to free win10 to get the latest security update. With this setup, I can make the Win10 home edition laptop to have system uptime of 6 months or more.
tim333 8y ago
Likewise. I was a happy user of Windows XP and 7. The way you can't control what windows 10 is up to is kind of annoying and I've gone to Mac.
jammygit 8y ago
10 years ago I complained about Microsoft, but basically was happy with windows and recommended it to people. Now I'm just creeped out by windows. I really wish they had left the ads and data collection out, the trust is just gone.

farazzz 8y ago

I didn’t think much of the telemetry at first, but when they added advertisements between games of minesweeper was when they went too far...

hodgesrm 8y ago

How does your model for the fact that a lot of MS growth is coming from things like Azure? [0] This is pure IaaS (compute/storage/networking + managed services) and it's increasingly popular. To the extent there's telemetry involved it's mostly to manage services effectively. [0] https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/07/20/microsoft-corporations-impressive-growth-in-5-metr.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/07/20/microsoft-corporat...

gaius 8y ago

But, with things like Windows 10 telemetry you can't turn off, and Windows turning into a service, they've gotten back on board with how Big Tech runs these days. They sort of have no choice but to play in this space given that Google does, they can’t just surrender that territory. But if the “attention economy” went away tomorrow MS core business would be fine, how much actual revenue do we think they even make from Windows 10 telemetry? Compared to Azure and O365?