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Violence Escalates as France Scrambles to Respond to ‘Yellow Vest’ Protesters

45 points by sahin-boydas 8y ago

fartcannon 8y ago
False flag, perhaps?
- mirimir 8y ago
  It could be. But I wonder just who is organizing this in social media. Maybe they've left clues, inadvertently. If I knew French better, I'd look into it.
- sparkie 8y ago
  The protests are real. The violence is the false flag. Saboteurs planted into the crowds to try and discredit the movement.
  - leaveyou 8y ago
    It already happened in the previous protests at Place de la Republique.. I would not be surprised.
    - sparkie 8y ago
      It's a tried and tested strategy that works for any kind of protest anywhere. People are angry and in large groups. It only takes a gentle push to create riots. The people in charge want the riots to happen so they can label their opponents as the lawless mob. You just need to look at who came dressed for riots though. It certainly isn't the yellow jackets.
      - leaveyou 8y ago
        I know. And if the mob is stubborn and does not want to escalate.. you send some "collaborators" to break the windows or put the fires because everyone knows, the mobs are crazy. I suspect the riot police is down-voting me.. No common sense people would get upset by my post.
- baybal2 8y ago
  I will tell you how the short lived Russian democracy fell: it did not fell to "crazy mountain terrorists," but to people who kept on voting for food stamps, and free sausages (that is not a joke at all) Now, when those people are genuinely fc*ked up, and have all the reasons to worry about having to eat grass in coming years, they have no food stamps left to vote for.
rdm_blackhole 8y ago
The French government has been raising taxes for years. People have been struggling to make ends meet. Macron comes off as a privileged president that has no clue about what his citizens are going through. Things are going to escalate further if nothing changes.
- hbbio 8y ago
  France has high taxes, but at the same time provides more services than other countries: free education including higher education, free healthcare, generous unemployment package, etc. Even more, this is done without closing the door to immigration. Regarding the current movement which started with taxes on gas, the tax raise is insignificant vs. the actual oil price increase. Read this article (in French) for more information: https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2018/11/09/petit-manuel-a-lire-avant-de-debattre-de-la-hausse-des-prix-du-carburant_5381196_4355770.html https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2018/11/09/peti... Also, the people who go into the protests to break cars and shops have nothing to do with the original movement. Some clearly came to loot shops (if you are anarchist, you want to burn luxury clothing items, not take them), some are anarchists who came to fight police forces, etc.
  - sbarker 8y ago
    No one gives a fuck about services if you can’t get some bread.
    - thefounder 8y ago
      you don't know what you are talking about.
  - onetimemanytime 8y ago
    You need to pay the taxes, your expenses and then you may use what the state provides. If you raise taxes and fees by X% for a few years and wages stagnate, people might forget the free education, since they can't pay their rent. I like the European tradition, it gets their attention, and messing with people's bread and butter is a cause to rise up
sahin-boydas 8y ago
European union human rights should be example to their own cops in France. it is pretty shocking how SOME french cops (no generalition of course) are so violet!!!
mirimir 8y ago
> Added to that is the reality that many who say they are supportive have not yet come out to demonstrate. While it is possible that this reservoir of supporters will not become activists, if they did the government would be hard put to cope. > ... > Multiple surveys of public opinion released in the past week suggest that 70 percent to 80 percent of French people sympathize with the Yellow Vests’ contention that President Emmanuel Macron and his government “talks about the end of the world while we are talking about the end of the month.” > The slogan refers to Mr. Macron’s focus on reducing climate change by promoting fuel efficiency and raising gas taxes in contrast to French working people who struggle to make it to the end of their month on their earnings. I'm reminded some of Trump rhetoric. Also the Occupy movement. It's a heady mix.
- JeanMarcS 8y ago
  It’s the second Saturday in a row that there are degradation on the Champs Elysées. Today someone even paint a slogan on the Arc de Triomphe. I’m not sure those good sympathetic polls will last long. Some of the yellow vests representatives demand to raise the level and start blocking gas stations. It’s December. One of the month where shops make a good part of their yearly income. I’m not sure a lot of people will continue to follow. We’ll see.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    > It’s December. One of the month where shops make a good part of their yearly income. True. But feeling poor during the holidays can be especially painful and frustrating, no?
- closeparen 8y ago
  A car can truly be a necessary lifeline in postwar American suburbs that were designed around it, but in France? In Paris? Wouldn’t you take the subway? Isn’t a car kind of a hassle/luxury there to begin with? I don’t understand the sympathy.
stdplaceholder 8y ago
At least now we have some idea of the fuel price needed to start a riot. $7/gal. That means there's plenty of headroom to raise the fuel tax in the USA!
- masonic 8y ago
  Well before that price, you'd see a huge increase in diversion of home heating oil (untaxed) to fuel use.
rasz 8y ago
"fun" fact: average earner in France can buy ~2K liters of diesel with one months salary, average earner in Poland ~600 liters. Half both numbers for minimum wages. French started this protest over expensive diesel ...
- rakoo 8y ago
  No, the tax on diesel was the final straw on the camel's back. People are poor, struggle to make ends meet, and felt unheard by the politicians; that's why the 2 historic parties completely failed at the last election, people wanted to see actual change. With very little effect, of course. When Macron added yet another reform that penalized those poor slices of population, that was the good moment for everyone to mobilize against a government they feel doesn't care about them.
- eli 8y ago
  Is it truly about diesel or is it like how the American revolution was about tea?
  - frenchyfrog 8y ago
    It is looking very much like the beginning of US tea party. A lot of retired people because their pensions diminished by 2-3%. Single parents who are really struggling because of housing prices. And then add to it all kind of extrems right, left etc. It just started about diesel.
- daleco 8y ago
  The economy in France has been anemic and never really recovered since the last crash (high unemployment). Lots of hard working french people are struggling. They feel that they are not being listen to.
- closeparen 8y ago
  France has only 479 cars per 1,000 people [0]. Only 13% of Parisians commute by car. [1] Drivers are a minority of the population, whose choices cause immense harm to everyone else. Their getting steamrolled by national policy seems completely reasonable. Their attempt to hold the rest of the country hostage does not. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle... [1] https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/the-automotive-liberation-of-paris/550718/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/the-automotiv...
sometime 8y ago
ELI5: What is the consensus on the disadvantages and advantages of diesel? I've heard conflicting information on this: Some say reducing the number of cows would be much more effective for slowing down global warming. Some say diesel exhaust fumes are not so bad and are unlikely to affect our health very much.
- rasz 8y ago
  Even if you dont care about global warming, diesel produces smog in cities. DPF and EGR delete is very popular among diesel owners, and rarely policed.
  - jondumbau 8y ago
    how popular do you really think it is in the average population...
- mikelyons 8y ago
  Diesel exhaust is very harmful, moreso than gasoline car exhaust.
  - wbrasky 8y ago
    citation needed
    - mikelyons 8y ago
      I don't have time to address your ignorance so forgive the wikipedia source, but it's commonly well known to be much more harmful than catalyzed gasoline exhaust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust#Concerns_regarding_particulates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust#Concerns_regard...
rad_gruchalski 8y ago
It's very interesting though, following the hashtag the protestors use yields quite a lot of Turkish activity in their support.
satuenpoo 8y ago
Raise taxes (ie: steal more from people) to pay for migrants on welfare and running grooming gangs. Why would anyone be upset?
bengalister 8y ago
Most of the violence is coming from left extremists or black blocks. At every protest in France (and we are specialist), you can see them attacking banks, insurance companies branches, luxury stores, burning expensive cars... I don't understand why the governments are not tougher on them. Maybe intelligence services are too busy spying on islamists which are an even more serious threat.
sahin-boydas 8y ago
just read 260+ arrested, nearly 90 injured.
sahin-boydas 8y ago
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/french-police-clash-with-yellow-vest-protesters-paris-riot-today-dozens-injured-2018-12-01/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/french-police-clash-with-yellow...
- sahin-boydas 8y ago
  French police clash with protesters in Paris riot; 90 injured

45 points by sahin-boydas 8y ago

fartcannon 8y ago

False flag, perhaps?

mirimir 8y ago
It could be. But I wonder just who is organizing this in social media. Maybe they've left clues, inadvertently. If I knew French better, I'd look into it.
sparkie 8y ago
The protests are real. The violence is the false flag. Saboteurs planted into the crowds to try and discredit the movement.
- leaveyou 8y ago
  It already happened in the previous protests at Place de la Republique.. I would not be surprised.
  - sparkie 8y ago
    It's a tried and tested strategy that works for any kind of protest anywhere. People are angry and in large groups. It only takes a gentle push to create riots. The people in charge want the riots to happen so they can label their opponents as the lawless mob. You just need to look at who came dressed for riots though. It certainly isn't the yellow jackets.
    - leaveyou 8y ago
      I know. And if the mob is stubborn and does not want to escalate.. you send some "collaborators" to break the windows or put the fires because everyone knows, the mobs are crazy. I suspect the riot police is down-voting me.. No common sense people would get upset by my post.
baybal2 8y ago
I will tell you how the short lived Russian democracy fell: it did not fell to "crazy mountain terrorists," but to people who kept on voting for food stamps, and free sausages (that is not a joke at all) Now, when those people are genuinely fc*ked up, and have all the reasons to worry about having to eat grass in coming years, they have no food stamps left to vote for.

rdm_blackhole 8y ago

The French government has been raising taxes for years. People have been struggling to make ends meet. Macron comes off as a privileged president that has no clue about what his citizens are going through. Things are going to escalate further if nothing changes.

hbbio 8y ago
France has high taxes, but at the same time provides more services than other countries: free education including higher education, free healthcare, generous unemployment package, etc. Even more, this is done without closing the door to immigration. Regarding the current movement which started with taxes on gas, the tax raise is insignificant vs. the actual oil price increase. Read this article (in French) for more information: https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2018/11/09/petit-manuel-a-lire-avant-de-debattre-de-la-hausse-des-prix-du-carburant_5381196_4355770.html https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2018/11/09/peti... Also, the people who go into the protests to break cars and shops have nothing to do with the original movement. Some clearly came to loot shops (if you are anarchist, you want to burn luxury clothing items, not take them), some are anarchists who came to fight police forces, etc.
- sbarker 8y ago
  No one gives a fuck about services if you can’t get some bread.
  - thefounder 8y ago
    you don't know what you are talking about.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  You need to pay the taxes, your expenses and then you may use what the state provides. If you raise taxes and fees by X% for a few years and wages stagnate, people might forget the free education, since they can't pay their rent. I like the European tradition, it gets their attention, and messing with people's bread and butter is a cause to rise up

sahin-boydas 8y ago

European union human rights should be example to their own cops in France. it is pretty shocking how SOME french cops (no generalition of course) are so violet!!!

mirimir 8y ago

> Added to that is the reality that many who say they are supportive have not yet come out to demonstrate. While it is possible that this reservoir of supporters will not become activists, if they did the government would be hard put to cope. > ... > Multiple surveys of public opinion released in the past week suggest that 70 percent to 80 percent of French people sympathize with the Yellow Vests’ contention that President Emmanuel Macron and his government “talks about the end of the world while we are talking about the end of the month.” > The slogan refers to Mr. Macron’s focus on reducing climate change by promoting fuel efficiency and raising gas taxes in contrast to French working people who struggle to make it to the end of their month on their earnings. I'm reminded some of Trump rhetoric. Also the Occupy movement. It's a heady mix.

JeanMarcS 8y ago
It’s the second Saturday in a row that there are degradation on the Champs Elysées. Today someone even paint a slogan on the Arc de Triomphe. I’m not sure those good sympathetic polls will last long. Some of the yellow vests representatives demand to raise the level and start blocking gas stations. It’s December. One of the month where shops make a good part of their yearly income. I’m not sure a lot of people will continue to follow. We’ll see.
- mirimir 8y ago
  > It’s December. One of the month where shops make a good part of their yearly income. True. But feeling poor during the holidays can be especially painful and frustrating, no?
closeparen 8y ago
A car can truly be a necessary lifeline in postwar American suburbs that were designed around it, but in France? In Paris? Wouldn’t you take the subway? Isn’t a car kind of a hassle/luxury there to begin with? I don’t understand the sympathy.

stdplaceholder 8y ago

At least now we have some idea of the fuel price needed to start a riot. $7/gal. That means there's plenty of headroom to raise the fuel tax in the USA!

masonic 8y ago
Well before that price, you'd see a huge increase in diversion of home heating oil (untaxed) to fuel use.

rasz 8y ago

"fun" fact: average earner in France can buy ~2K liters of diesel with one months salary, average earner in Poland ~600 liters. Half both numbers for minimum wages. French started this protest over expensive diesel ...

rakoo 8y ago
No, the tax on diesel was the final straw on the camel's back. People are poor, struggle to make ends meet, and felt unheard by the politicians; that's why the 2 historic parties completely failed at the last election, people wanted to see actual change. With very little effect, of course. When Macron added yet another reform that penalized those poor slices of population, that was the good moment for everyone to mobilize against a government they feel doesn't care about them.
eli 8y ago
Is it truly about diesel or is it like how the American revolution was about tea?
- frenchyfrog 8y ago
  It is looking very much like the beginning of US tea party. A lot of retired people because their pensions diminished by 2-3%. Single parents who are really struggling because of housing prices. And then add to it all kind of extrems right, left etc. It just started about diesel.
daleco 8y ago
The economy in France has been anemic and never really recovered since the last crash (high unemployment). Lots of hard working french people are struggling. They feel that they are not being listen to.
closeparen 8y ago
France has only 479 cars per 1,000 people [0]. Only 13% of Parisians commute by car. [1] Drivers are a minority of the population, whose choices cause immense harm to everyone else. Their getting steamrolled by national policy seems completely reasonable. Their attempt to hold the rest of the country hostage does not. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle... [1] https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/the-automotive-liberation-of-paris/550718/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/the-automotiv...

sometime 8y ago

ELI5: What is the consensus on the disadvantages and advantages of diesel? I've heard conflicting information on this: Some say reducing the number of cows would be much more effective for slowing down global warming. Some say diesel exhaust fumes are not so bad and are unlikely to affect our health very much.

rasz 8y ago
Even if you dont care about global warming, diesel produces smog in cities. DPF and EGR delete is very popular among diesel owners, and rarely policed.
- jondumbau 8y ago
  how popular do you really think it is in the average population...
mikelyons 8y ago
Diesel exhaust is very harmful, moreso than gasoline car exhaust.
- wbrasky 8y ago
  citation needed
  - mikelyons 8y ago
    I don't have time to address your ignorance so forgive the wikipedia source, but it's commonly well known to be much more harmful than catalyzed gasoline exhaust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust#Concerns_regarding_particulates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust#Concerns_regard...

rad_gruchalski 8y ago

It's very interesting though, following the hashtag the protestors use yields quite a lot of Turkish activity in their support.

satuenpoo 8y ago

Raise taxes (ie: steal more from people) to pay for migrants on welfare and running grooming gangs. Why would anyone be upset?

bengalister 8y ago

Most of the violence is coming from left extremists or black blocks. At every protest in France (and we are specialist), you can see them attacking banks, insurance companies branches, luxury stores, burning expensive cars... I don't understand why the governments are not tougher on them. Maybe intelligence services are too busy spying on islamists which are an even more serious threat.

sahin-boydas 8y ago

just read 260+ arrested, nearly 90 injured.

sahin-boydas 8y ago

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/french-police-clash-with-yellow-vest-protesters-paris-riot-today-dozens-injured-2018-12-01/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/french-police-clash-with-yellow...

sahin-boydas 8y ago
French police clash with protesters in Paris riot; 90 injured