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With the evidence pointing to vast numbers of state agencies around the world engaging in this type of information warfare, do you think it better that democrat

With the evidence pointing to vast numbers of state agencies around the world engaging in this type of information warfare, do you think it better that democratic nations do nothing in response? What would be an alternative or more effective method of defending against the Russian and Chinese troll farms? I'm not endorsing these tactics, and wonder if we are already in a situation where there is a threat of mutually assured destruction? Doing nothing in response seems to lead to even worse outcomes then the admittedly unsavory alternative.

kaffeemitsahne 8y ago
>What would be an alternative or more effective method of defending against the Russian and Chinese troll farms? Not believing everything you read on the internet.
- jnurmine 8y ago
  Yes, indeed. It might also help to understand how the operation works. The method seems to be, based on my understanding of analyses in the Finnish media about how the "troll factory of Saint Petersburg" operates: 1. amplify suitable existing events/movements with fake accounts spreading supporting posts, 2. use advertisements or rumors to create suitable new openings for 1, then do 1. The main purpose is to amplify messages that are aligned with the political aspirations of the Russian Federation. Further legitimacy is obtained when a "serious news site" (usually other Russia controlled media like RT) publishes something about the subject. The idea becomes something more legit and more plausible, even though it might have begun as an intentionally fabricated lie. The rest is taken care of by gullible people who absorb the message without much thinking and then spread it further, especially when the message fits their image of or desired state of the world. So basically the Russian troll factory is an astroturfing organization, but instead of pimping a product, they pimp emotionally loaded social media sentiments that support political goals.
  - nyolfen 8y ago
    that’s just media
    - hnmonkey 8y ago
      'just media'? Media is potentially the most valuable conduit for information for the human race currently. Newspapers, social media, news organizations, tv, apps, advertisements, and a million others. There isn't a 'just' related to media because it's so powerful and pervasive. It's a pipeline into 7 billion people's brains.
- walshemj 8y ago
  How exactly would that work for the general population ?
zby 8y ago
The Bruce Schneier article recently discussed on HN (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18541886 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18541886 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3273111&fbclid=IwAR3Jz2XeGLcbvX0TwLup2bcdgeUKzRjxIEnSr7rmUHN8JvYrCXaz2SBMIIY https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3273111&...) is the best answer I know. It is just a start - but at least it frames the problem in the right way.
liftbigweights 8y ago
> What would be an alternative or more effective method of defending against the Russian and Chinese troll farms? What russian or chinese troll farms? The biggest trolling in the US by far is DNC, RNC, israeli, british and canadian trolls. Or are you someone who believes the propaganda that some russian company spending $100K on facebook ads is why Trump got elected? > Doing nothing in response seems to lead to even worse outcomes then the admittedly unsavory alternative. What makes you think russian or chinese trolling isn't a response to our trolling? It's so funny how the most aggressive and expansionist side always pretends to be the victim. The easiest way to counter trolling is free speech. It's very easy to spot trolling. Call it out.
- jnurmine 8y ago
  The poster probably referred to the operation at 55 Savushkina Street in Saint Petersburg: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency
- civilitty 8y ago
  > Or are you someone who believes the propaganda that some russian company spending $100K on facebook ads is why Trump got elected? https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download I didn't know that the Main Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation was a Facebook ad campaign! Why have we been worried about all this mutually assured destruction stuff then anyway? They clearly don't have as many likes as we do. The point isn't to play victim. It's to come to terms with the evils we have all committed (as Russians, Americans, etc.) and make sure we don't do so in the future.
- EvilTerran 8y ago
  > some russian company spending $100K on facebook ads The Kremlin internet propaganda project had, at its peak, a budget of more than $1.25 million per month. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/mueller-roadmap/553604/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/mueller...
ryacko 8y ago
Aren’t political campaigns information warfare? We’re just allowing the tumor to metastize to the brain and are claiming the growths on the head are a sign of increasing intelligence.
beginningguava 8y ago
It seems we were the first to do it, the article says that they have tools to influence online polls and spam emails and SMS and were using them as far back as 2009 in the Falkland Islands and to push regime change in Zimbabwe. People have also said Arab Spring wasn't exactly organic as well.

kaffeemitsahne 8y ago

>What would be an alternative or more effective method of defending against the Russian and Chinese troll farms? Not believing everything you read on the internet.

jnurmine 8y ago
Yes, indeed. It might also help to understand how the operation works. The method seems to be, based on my understanding of analyses in the Finnish media about how the "troll factory of Saint Petersburg" operates: 1. amplify suitable existing events/movements with fake accounts spreading supporting posts, 2. use advertisements or rumors to create suitable new openings for 1, then do 1. The main purpose is to amplify messages that are aligned with the political aspirations of the Russian Federation. Further legitimacy is obtained when a "serious news site" (usually other Russia controlled media like RT) publishes something about the subject. The idea becomes something more legit and more plausible, even though it might have begun as an intentionally fabricated lie. The rest is taken care of by gullible people who absorb the message without much thinking and then spread it further, especially when the message fits their image of or desired state of the world. So basically the Russian troll factory is an astroturfing organization, but instead of pimping a product, they pimp emotionally loaded social media sentiments that support political goals.
- nyolfen 8y ago
  that’s just media
  - hnmonkey 8y ago
    'just media'? Media is potentially the most valuable conduit for information for the human race currently. Newspapers, social media, news organizations, tv, apps, advertisements, and a million others. There isn't a 'just' related to media because it's so powerful and pervasive. It's a pipeline into 7 billion people's brains.
walshemj 8y ago
How exactly would that work for the general population ?

zby 8y ago

The Bruce Schneier article recently discussed on HN (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18541886 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18541886 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3273111&fbclid=IwAR3Jz2XeGLcbvX0TwLup2bcdgeUKzRjxIEnSr7rmUHN8JvYrCXaz2SBMIIY https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3273111&...) is the best answer I know. It is just a start - but at least it frames the problem in the right way.

liftbigweights 8y ago

> What would be an alternative or more effective method of defending against the Russian and Chinese troll farms? What russian or chinese troll farms? The biggest trolling in the US by far is DNC, RNC, israeli, british and canadian trolls. Or are you someone who believes the propaganda that some russian company spending $100K on facebook ads is why Trump got elected? > Doing nothing in response seems to lead to even worse outcomes then the admittedly unsavory alternative. What makes you think russian or chinese trolling isn't a response to our trolling? It's so funny how the most aggressive and expansionist side always pretends to be the victim. The easiest way to counter trolling is free speech. It's very easy to spot trolling. Call it out.

jnurmine 8y ago
The poster probably referred to the operation at 55 Savushkina Street in Saint Petersburg: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency
civilitty 8y ago
> Or are you someone who believes the propaganda that some russian company spending $100K on facebook ads is why Trump got elected? https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download I didn't know that the Main Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation was a Facebook ad campaign! Why have we been worried about all this mutually assured destruction stuff then anyway? They clearly don't have as many likes as we do. The point isn't to play victim. It's to come to terms with the evils we have all committed (as Russians, Americans, etc.) and make sure we don't do so in the future.
EvilTerran 8y ago
> some russian company spending $100K on facebook ads The Kremlin internet propaganda project had, at its peak, a budget of more than $1.25 million per month. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/mueller-roadmap/553604/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/mueller...

ryacko 8y ago

Aren’t political campaigns information warfare? We’re just allowing the tumor to metastize to the brain and are claiming the growths on the head are a sign of increasing intelligence.

beginningguava 8y ago

It seems we were the first to do it, the article says that they have tools to influence online polls and spam emails and SMS and were using them as far back as 2009 in the Falkland Islands and to push regime change in Zimbabwe. People have also said Arab Spring wasn't exactly organic as well.