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I might be missing your point or simply have a hard time understanding this anti FOSS rethoric. I'm reading that you'd pay a third party so you can trust open

I might be missing your point or simply have a hard time understanding this anti FOSS rethoric. I'm reading that you'd pay a third party so you can trust open source code and think that FOSS somehow exposes commercial code to more risk in some kind of cyber warfare? How is that not complete FUD? You already have the option to pay vendors like redhat for many open source software components if liability is your only concern, the same is true for many of the more complex libraries out there. Closed source on the other hand would mean buying every single piece of code or paying in house devs to write that code. I get the quality concerns raised here up to a point but just because a company paid somebody to write something doesn't mean it's not effectively written by a solo dev under heavy time constraints. Except with FOSS you at least have the chance to go in and inspect/fix the thing yourself if needs be.

TimJYoung 8y ago
Two things: 1) The PC software world did run for quite a few years on the model of predominantly commercial/proprietary software, most of it being closed-source, so it's not like it is some far-fetched idea that doesn't work in economic terms. Personally, I prefer the commercial license/source-included model, with the emphasis on the author/company getting paid to ensure that the situations like the one described here are avoided. You can then have additional educational licenses for ensuring access to developer tools for educational purposes, but that's up to the author/company. 2) If you directly pay someone to write software, I would expect any such arrangement to include the source code as part of the work product, regardless of the ultimate visibility of the source code to outside parties.
- starbeast 8y ago
  >The PC software world did run for quite a few years on the model of predominantly commercial/proprietary software, most of it being closed-source, so it's not like it is some far-fetched idea that doesn't work in economic terms. And now Microsoft uses linux on the majority of their own cloud offerings. Open source beats propriety software on economic terms a lot of the time. It doesn't matter that both can work in economic terms, it matters which one is better in economic terms.
  - TimJYoung 8y ago
    I don't think this book has been completely written yet. I think we're just now starting to see some of the major issues with FOSS, so don't throw up that "Mission Accomplished" banner yet. FOSS is very much like the internet, in general: it was great when it was a small group of technical, like-minded, dedicated individuals working towards common goals. It starts falling apart, however, once you introduce the rest of the world into the system because the world primarily works on the basis of ruthless self-interest.
    - starbeast 8y ago
      FOSS was going nowhere until the rest of the world got introduced to it. It was of more or less purely academic interest for a very long time.
- skybrian 8y ago
  The history of cryptocurrency in particular and business law in general shows that adding money to the system doesn't automatically result in trustworthiness. Even the giant corporations providing cloud computing do decide to abandon products and discontinue services, or dramatically raise prices. As someone else suggested, maybe the way to go is to rely on foundations. Maybe individuals shouldn't be taking on the burden of maintaining software alone? Maybe JavaScript needs a more slow-moving organization like Debian to handle package integration, with all the bureaucracy that entails?
  - TimJYoung 8y ago
    Absolutely - adding money doesn't automatically result in trustworthiness. What it does do, however, is make the transaction fall under legal commerce, which gives the purchaser/user rights and remedies that they do not have with free (as in cost) software. With foundations or any other form of over-arching bureaucracy, you risk stultifying software developers and harming innovation. It's really, really hard to beat the self-organizing aspects of free markets combined with commercial legal frameworks.
    - skybrian 8y ago
      Well okay, but these aren't opposites. Large businesses cooperate internally using bureaucracy. They cooperate externally using (and funding) foundations and other open source work. There is market demand for stability and it can be a competitive advantage over innovative but unstable alternatives. (Consider why Go and Docker are so popular.) And why do companies start and fund foundations? Because their customers have doubts. It's better for stability than a market that's not based on standards.
    - jammygit 8y ago
      Do you have any rights with paid devices? A kindle comes with 8 hours, 59 minutes of disclaimers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxygkyskucA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxygkyskucA

TimJYoung 8y ago

Two things: 1) The PC software world did run for quite a few years on the model of predominantly commercial/proprietary software, most of it being closed-source, so it's not like it is some far-fetched idea that doesn't work in economic terms. Personally, I prefer the commercial license/source-included model, with the emphasis on the author/company getting paid to ensure that the situations like the one described here are avoided. You can then have additional educational licenses for ensuring access to developer tools for educational purposes, but that's up to the author/company. 2) If you directly pay someone to write software, I would expect any such arrangement to include the source code as part of the work product, regardless of the ultimate visibility of the source code to outside parties.

starbeast 8y ago
>The PC software world did run for quite a few years on the model of predominantly commercial/proprietary software, most of it being closed-source, so it's not like it is some far-fetched idea that doesn't work in economic terms. And now Microsoft uses linux on the majority of their own cloud offerings. Open source beats propriety software on economic terms a lot of the time. It doesn't matter that both can work in economic terms, it matters which one is better in economic terms.
- TimJYoung 8y ago
  I don't think this book has been completely written yet. I think we're just now starting to see some of the major issues with FOSS, so don't throw up that "Mission Accomplished" banner yet. FOSS is very much like the internet, in general: it was great when it was a small group of technical, like-minded, dedicated individuals working towards common goals. It starts falling apart, however, once you introduce the rest of the world into the system because the world primarily works on the basis of ruthless self-interest.
  - starbeast 8y ago
    FOSS was going nowhere until the rest of the world got introduced to it. It was of more or less purely academic interest for a very long time.
skybrian 8y ago
The history of cryptocurrency in particular and business law in general shows that adding money to the system doesn't automatically result in trustworthiness. Even the giant corporations providing cloud computing do decide to abandon products and discontinue services, or dramatically raise prices. As someone else suggested, maybe the way to go is to rely on foundations. Maybe individuals shouldn't be taking on the burden of maintaining software alone? Maybe JavaScript needs a more slow-moving organization like Debian to handle package integration, with all the bureaucracy that entails?
- TimJYoung 8y ago
  Absolutely - adding money doesn't automatically result in trustworthiness. What it does do, however, is make the transaction fall under legal commerce, which gives the purchaser/user rights and remedies that they do not have with free (as in cost) software. With foundations or any other form of over-arching bureaucracy, you risk stultifying software developers and harming innovation. It's really, really hard to beat the self-organizing aspects of free markets combined with commercial legal frameworks.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    Well okay, but these aren't opposites. Large businesses cooperate internally using bureaucracy. They cooperate externally using (and funding) foundations and other open source work. There is market demand for stability and it can be a competitive advantage over innovative but unstable alternatives. (Consider why Go and Docker are so popular.) And why do companies start and fund foundations? Because their customers have doubts. It's better for stability than a market that's not based on standards.
  - jammygit 8y ago
    Do you have any rights with paid devices? A kindle comes with 8 hours, 59 minutes of disclaimers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxygkyskucA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxygkyskucA