6 ms·

An honest question: Did you read the relevant text of the directive or is your opinion based only on the second-hand interpretations?

by avian 8y ago

xhruso00 8y ago
I second this. Most people did not even dare to read it.
- TomasSedovic 8y ago
  To be fair, it is a really difficult thing to read and comprehend. I've read the whole proposal around May this year, and it is tough. When I did get to the articles 11 and 13, a lot of the stuff people were really warning against wasn't even there. It was in a reference to another law, already passed years ago and only referenced by its number. So you had to look that up and any references it had, too. And at the end of it, you're still left with a deep unease that you've probably missed a lot of data and meaning because these things don't seem to be written in a way non-layers can understand.
Reason077 8y ago
This is actually a significant problem with the way many EU directives are written. Wording is often loose, sometimes vague, and subject to considerable interpretation. Perhaps deliberately so.
sarcasmic 8y ago
I doubt most of those people who've bought into the notion that small businesses like Reddit and nonprofit services like Wikipedia would be affected have read the relevant text, considering the text specifically says nonprofits and small businesses are exempt [1] from the rules of Article 13 (the takedown one). I'm also puzzled by the people saying it's difficult to comprehend. The hardest part is mentally joining the diffs in amendments to the static copy before a document is updated. EU legislation is not nearly as weasely as US, and likes to use precise terms it defines earlier in the document. Such is the case with the terms 'information society service' and 'online content sharing service provider' [2], whose exact definitions are relevant. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18488844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18488844 [2] search for 'Amendment 150' in http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=TA&language=EN&reference=P8-TA-2018-0337 http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=TA&langua...
- Recursing 8y ago
  How is Reddit a small business?
  - sarcasmic 8y ago
    They're supposedly under 500 employees, which is the EU threshold for small and medium enterprise. They prominently mention their small business status in their post. It's likely that their assertion is deliberate.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - abc-xyz 8y ago
      Reddit having under 500 employees is beyond ridiculous.. it might be understandable if they were a honorable company that protected people's privacy, but they're the complete opposite, and they even go out of their way to make it near impossible for 99% of their users to download a video on their site (kinda hypocritical). If Reddit didn't exist and their traffic was driven to niche forums/websites then you could expect hundreds of thousands of jobs.
      - why_only_15 8y ago
        So it's great that Reddit exists because now you don't have to have hundreds of thousands of people maintaining these small websites and have hundreds of people maintaining one website.
        abc-xyz 8y ago
        It would be great if they were a honorable company (ideally a non-profit org) that protected user privacy rather than taking great pride in violating it. And I don't think it's great that you have one site controlled by an evil company and filled with low quality content/discussion about every niche topic when you could instead visit 2-10 websites about the niche content you care about.

An honest question: Did you read the relevant text of the directive or is your opinion based only on the second-hand interpretations?

by avian 8y ago

An honest question: Did you read the relevant text of the directive or is your opinion based only on the second-hand interpretations?

xhruso00 8y ago

I second this. Most people did not even dare to read it.

TomasSedovic 8y ago
To be fair, it is a really difficult thing to read and comprehend. I've read the whole proposal around May this year, and it is tough. When I did get to the articles 11 and 13, a lot of the stuff people were really warning against wasn't even there. It was in a reference to another law, already passed years ago and only referenced by its number. So you had to look that up and any references it had, too. And at the end of it, you're still left with a deep unease that you've probably missed a lot of data and meaning because these things don't seem to be written in a way non-layers can understand.

Reason077 8y ago

This is actually a significant problem with the way many EU directives are written. Wording is often loose, sometimes vague, and subject to considerable interpretation. Perhaps deliberately so.

sarcasmic 8y ago

I doubt most of those people who've bought into the notion that small businesses like Reddit and nonprofit services like Wikipedia would be affected have read the relevant text, considering the text specifically says nonprofits and small businesses are exempt [1] from the rules of Article 13 (the takedown one). I'm also puzzled by the people saying it's difficult to comprehend. The hardest part is mentally joining the diffs in amendments to the static copy before a document is updated. EU legislation is not nearly as weasely as US, and likes to use precise terms it defines earlier in the document. Such is the case with the terms 'information society service' and 'online content sharing service provider' [2], whose exact definitions are relevant. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18488844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18488844 [2] search for 'Amendment 150' in http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=TA&language=EN&reference=P8-TA-2018-0337 http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=TA&langua...

Recursing 8y ago
How is Reddit a small business?
- sarcasmic 8y ago
  They're supposedly under 500 employees, which is the EU threshold for small and medium enterprise. They prominently mention their small business status in their post. It's likely that their assertion is deliberate.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - abc-xyz 8y ago
    Reddit having under 500 employees is beyond ridiculous.. it might be understandable if they were a honorable company that protected people's privacy, but they're the complete opposite, and they even go out of their way to make it near impossible for 99% of their users to download a video on their site (kinda hypocritical). If Reddit didn't exist and their traffic was driven to niche forums/websites then you could expect hundreds of thousands of jobs.
    - why_only_15 8y ago
      So it's great that Reddit exists because now you don't have to have hundreds of thousands of people maintaining these small websites and have hundreds of people maintaining one website.
      - abc-xyz 8y ago
        It would be great if they were a honorable company (ideally a non-profit org) that protected user privacy rather than taking great pride in violating it. And I don't think it's great that you have one site controlled by an evil company and filled with low quality content/discussion about every niche topic when you could instead visit 2-10 websites about the niche content you care about.