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The problem with this logic is that it treats the malevolent dictatorship as a given. If you believe that there will be concentration camps, dissident crackdown

The problem with this logic is that it treats the malevolent dictatorship as a given. If you believe that there will be concentration camps, dissident crackdowns, and absolute censorship in China forever, this is a reasonable position. If you believe there is any hope for the Chinese people, foreign entities should focus on aiding the regime and the political status quo as little as possible, hypothetical ad business improvements or not.

ehsankia 8y ago
1. No, but you have a much better chance of actually bringing change if you're in there, than if you leave it on its own. 2. Almost every single Chinese citizen I've spoken to is for this project. I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged in their place and assume they know what's best for others. Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them? You're not the one who has to live without dozens of Google services that only have shitty alternatives, they are.
- carlosdp 8y ago
  > Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them? This assumes most of their citizens have all the information about the implications, which is very unlikely, for the very reason everyone is wary of Google re-entering China.
  - thenanyu 8y ago
    Chinese citizens are well aware of the censorship practices of their government. They are aware of the bargain that Google must strike.
    - pas 8y ago
      Are they aware of the consequences of that bargain? Are they aware of their own biases regarding the assessment of those consequences?
- bicubic 8y ago
  > I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged [...] Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them? I don't think you understand what this debate is about. This isn't about what Chinese citizens want. This is the rest of the developed world standing up and saying they don't want to be involved in aiding an oppressive regime. China doesn't get to hold the wellbeing of the citizens it's oppressing as a bargaining chip here. If chinese citizens are worse off for it, they should be looking to make their government more like the west rather than making baseless pleas for the west to become more like China. Ultimately this is the heart of the debate. Is China's market size big enough to force western tech to bow down to unethical practices for some sweet $, or is the western tech industry big enough to send a loud and clear message that the Chinese regime is not acceptable to the developed world.
  - TACIXAT 8y ago
    >This is the rest of the developed world standing up and saying they don't want to be involved in aiding an oppressive regime. By the rest of the developed world you mean a small and loud subset of Google employees?
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- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  > Almost every single Chinese citizen I've spoken to is for this project. Obviously. The people who aren't would be crazy to confide in you. > Why not let them decide what they want for their country So you would have been okay with Hitler "just" murdering Jews, not starting a war, as long as most Germans would have been for it? How come we think of it as Jews and others having been murdered, instead of Germans just doing something "to themselves"? Or hey, even during the war, wasn't that just Europeans doing something? Why not simply go all the way, to carbon-based life forms, or simply declaring everything the same, because "it's all just physics and chemistry"? And whose country was Germany during that time, would you say -- that of the Nazis and their supporters, or the Germans in exile and in resistance, the ones in graves? Just calling something "ideals" (because you don't dare to acknowledge the principles, while you reap their fruits no less) and "outrage", that's simply nothing but rich, considering your being "outraged" over the ideal of non-intervention, of "not judging" or "having to live without Google services" (just wow). > You're not the one who has to live without dozens of Google services that only have shitty alternatives, they are. So you do understand the logic, you simply only apply it to petty things, not murder. https://exhibitions.ushmm.org/americans-and-the-holocaust/main https://exhibitions.ushmm.org/americans-and-the-holocaust/ma... "Murder is not government". Now there's a thought. By the same token, looking away is not being a citizen. Neither you, nor the people you have spoken to, got to taste the wrong end of the gun of totalitarianism. If you think only of yourself, nobody should think of you.
morpheuskafka 8y ago
Not only that, but to the extent practical they should support subverting it (ie. making their sites available via hidden services, etc.). Would we likeiwse argue that working with the Nazi government (with the exception of red cross type relief aid and ceasefires) was acceptable for American businesses?
- scarcely 8y ago
  If you see no difference between the Chinese government and the Nazi government, you should perhaps consider advocating for war (unless you are a non-interventionist)
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forkLding 8y ago
You're presuming a dictatorship is easy to bring down, the Syrian Civil War is still fighting on but no-one cares anymore about their attempts for democracy. Its not even big news on the media anymore, at this point the fighting is just a free-for-all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War

ehsankia 8y ago

1. No, but you have a much better chance of actually bringing change if you're in there, than if you leave it on its own. 2. Almost every single Chinese citizen I've spoken to is for this project. I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged in their place and assume they know what's best for others. Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them? You're not the one who has to live without dozens of Google services that only have shitty alternatives, they are.

carlosdp 8y ago
> Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them? This assumes most of their citizens have all the information about the implications, which is very unlikely, for the very reason everyone is wary of Google re-entering China.
- thenanyu 8y ago
  Chinese citizens are well aware of the censorship practices of their government. They are aware of the bargain that Google must strike.
  - pas 8y ago
    Are they aware of the consequences of that bargain? Are they aware of their own biases regarding the assessment of those consequences?
bicubic 8y ago
> I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged [...] Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them? I don't think you understand what this debate is about. This isn't about what Chinese citizens want. This is the rest of the developed world standing up and saying they don't want to be involved in aiding an oppressive regime. China doesn't get to hold the wellbeing of the citizens it's oppressing as a bargaining chip here. If chinese citizens are worse off for it, they should be looking to make their government more like the west rather than making baseless pleas for the west to become more like China. Ultimately this is the heart of the debate. Is China's market size big enough to force western tech to bow down to unethical practices for some sweet $, or is the western tech industry big enough to send a loud and clear message that the Chinese regime is not acceptable to the developed world.
- TACIXAT 8y ago
  >This is the rest of the developed world standing up and saying they don't want to be involved in aiding an oppressive regime. By the rest of the developed world you mean a small and loud subset of Google employees?
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PavlovsCat 8y ago
> Almost every single Chinese citizen I've spoken to is for this project. Obviously. The people who aren't would be crazy to confide in you. > Why not let them decide what they want for their country So you would have been okay with Hitler "just" murdering Jews, not starting a war, as long as most Germans would have been for it? How come we think of it as Jews and others having been murdered, instead of Germans just doing something "to themselves"? Or hey, even during the war, wasn't that just Europeans doing something? Why not simply go all the way, to carbon-based life forms, or simply declaring everything the same, because "it's all just physics and chemistry"? And whose country was Germany during that time, would you say -- that of the Nazis and their supporters, or the Germans in exile and in resistance, the ones in graves? Just calling something "ideals" (because you don't dare to acknowledge the principles, while you reap their fruits no less) and "outrage", that's simply nothing but rich, considering your being "outraged" over the ideal of non-intervention, of "not judging" or "having to live without Google services" (just wow). > You're not the one who has to live without dozens of Google services that only have shitty alternatives, they are. So you do understand the logic, you simply only apply it to petty things, not murder. https://exhibitions.ushmm.org/americans-and-the-holocaust/main https://exhibitions.ushmm.org/americans-and-the-holocaust/ma... "Murder is not government". Now there's a thought. By the same token, looking away is not being a citizen. Neither you, nor the people you have spoken to, got to taste the wrong end of the gun of totalitarianism. If you think only of yourself, nobody should think of you.

morpheuskafka 8y ago

Not only that, but to the extent practical they should support subverting it (ie. making their sites available via hidden services, etc.). Would we likeiwse argue that working with the Nazi government (with the exception of red cross type relief aid and ceasefires) was acceptable for American businesses?

scarcely 8y ago
If you see no difference between the Chinese government and the Nazi government, you should perhaps consider advocating for war (unless you are a non-interventionist)

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forkLding 8y ago

You're presuming a dictatorship is easy to bring down, the Syrian Civil War is still fighting on but no-one cares anymore about their attempts for democracy. Its not even big news on the media anymore, at this point the fighting is just a free-for-all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War