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The problem with this argument is that you're assuming that there's more offer than demand, when in fact is the opposite. This is why tech companies push hard f

The problem with this argument is that you're assuming that there's more offer than demand, when in fact is the opposite. This is why tech companies push hard for the H1-B program. It's possible that there's a large body of citizens with technical degrees that theoretically could fulfill those jobs, but that doesn't mean that they have the skills or the applied knowledge to perform at the standards required for those jobs. People like to poke at this argument, but any technical person knows that claiming that you know a technology (e.g: a programming language) doesn't equal to being great at working with that technology. Every company has the right to enforce a hiring standard and most top companies will have a very high one. I don't think this has to do at all with formal education but rather with experience and skill. This applies to anyone regardless of nationality or origin. Anecdotically, some of the best American born programmers I have met in my life, don't have an undergrad degree or dropped before graduating. They are all employed at top companies and have always managed to stay employed and keep growing their incomes steadily. Either way, H1-B is a mess and should change for the benefit of everyone affected directly and indirectly by it. This means American workers, internation students, foreign talent and companies.

tracer4201 8y ago
>The problem with this argument is that you're assuming that there's more offer than demand, when in fact is the opposite. I fundamentally disagree with this statement. At top tech companies, I have come across enough mediocre hires who prepared enough for a technical interview to get "in" the company, but are otherwise doing very mundane work or require a ton of direction. In industry, I've come across with even worse hires who couldn't even program. I don't believe there's a shortage of talent in this country.
- whoisjuan 8y ago
  It might be an artificial shortage for sure. I also have seen terrible programmers and technical people in general gaming the technical interview and getting jobs that are beyond their abilities. However I do think that is not a binary issue that can be blamed on a single cause. There's a range of things that could affect the outcome of a hiring decision and if H1-B is one of those reasons (let's say out of bad faith someone hires under H1-B because they want to pay them less), then is obvious that there are many other factors and biases that are affecting the outcome of how technical talent is hired in the US. Croyinsm, sexism, racism, ageism, broken hiring practices, corporate politics; just to mention a few.
- belltaco 8y ago
  >I don't believe there's a shortage of talent in this country. Do you have any experience in hiring people? East coast here and its impossible to find citizens who can code FizzBuzz. Those that can already have a job and don't come to interviews. There are multiple thousands of very high paying security related job openings that need citizens only, because of clearances. Zero percent unemployment: https://cybersecurityventures.com/cybersecurity-unemployment-rate/ https://cybersecurityventures.com/cybersecurity-unemployment... https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/tech-cybersecurity-zero-percent-unemployment-1016 https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/tech-cybersecu...
  - diggernet 8y ago
    And every one of those I've looked at in my area required a clearance, and wouldn't consider "clearable". You can't get a clearance without having a job that needs it. Without a clearance, you can't get a job that needs one unless the job accepts clearable candidates. By requiring a clearance they are fighting for people from a very limited pool. If they really want to fill those jobs they'd allow clearable candidates, which would allow them to pull from a much larger pool.
    - souprock 8y ago
      Clearable is normally good enough where I work.
  - wenc 8y ago
    Have been on the hiring end here and have a strong preference for citizen and LPR hires. Even so, finding the right talent is challenging because we’re not a famous tech company. All the talented kids who are citizens want to work for cool companies, and we’re not one. Also statistically very few citizens go to grad school in STEM fields, and we’re looking for folks with graduate-level education in our field. Our salary rates for citizens and non citizens are identical. The few citizens who apply to our non prestigious company are competing against a pool of talented H1Bs (not all H1Bs are body shop employees; many are graduates of fine American schools... we’re talking MIT and CMU), yet because of the pool they are in, they often come up short. The most competitive citizens tend not to want to work for non prestigious companies, so we get the less competitive citizen candidates and more competitive non citizens. I don’t want to say this is the norm out there, because it is not, but to those who have misgivings about H1Bs (the non body shop variety), I’d be interested to hear your stories about your experiences hiring and where/how you found your quality citizen/LPR talent pools (I’d be inclined to hear from employers and hiring managers rather than anecdotal hearsay about a friend of a friend).
- davidgay 8y ago
  > I fundamentally disagree with this statement. At top tech companies, I have come across enough mediocre hires who prepared enough for a technical interview to get "in" the company, but are otherwise doing very mundane work or require a ton of direction. That's easily viewable as evidence that offer is lower than demand: even the top (presumably, picky) top tech companies have had to resort to sub-par hires.

tracer4201 8y ago

>The problem with this argument is that you're assuming that there's more offer than demand, when in fact is the opposite. I fundamentally disagree with this statement. At top tech companies, I have come across enough mediocre hires who prepared enough for a technical interview to get "in" the company, but are otherwise doing very mundane work or require a ton of direction. In industry, I've come across with even worse hires who couldn't even program. I don't believe there's a shortage of talent in this country.

whoisjuan 8y ago
It might be an artificial shortage for sure. I also have seen terrible programmers and technical people in general gaming the technical interview and getting jobs that are beyond their abilities. However I do think that is not a binary issue that can be blamed on a single cause. There's a range of things that could affect the outcome of a hiring decision and if H1-B is one of those reasons (let's say out of bad faith someone hires under H1-B because they want to pay them less), then is obvious that there are many other factors and biases that are affecting the outcome of how technical talent is hired in the US. Croyinsm, sexism, racism, ageism, broken hiring practices, corporate politics; just to mention a few.
belltaco 8y ago
>I don't believe there's a shortage of talent in this country. Do you have any experience in hiring people? East coast here and its impossible to find citizens who can code FizzBuzz. Those that can already have a job and don't come to interviews. There are multiple thousands of very high paying security related job openings that need citizens only, because of clearances. Zero percent unemployment: https://cybersecurityventures.com/cybersecurity-unemployment-rate/ https://cybersecurityventures.com/cybersecurity-unemployment... https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/tech-cybersecurity-zero-percent-unemployment-1016 https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/tech-cybersecu...
- diggernet 8y ago
  And every one of those I've looked at in my area required a clearance, and wouldn't consider "clearable". You can't get a clearance without having a job that needs it. Without a clearance, you can't get a job that needs one unless the job accepts clearable candidates. By requiring a clearance they are fighting for people from a very limited pool. If they really want to fill those jobs they'd allow clearable candidates, which would allow them to pull from a much larger pool.
  - souprock 8y ago
    Clearable is normally good enough where I work.
- wenc 8y ago
  Have been on the hiring end here and have a strong preference for citizen and LPR hires. Even so, finding the right talent is challenging because we’re not a famous tech company. All the talented kids who are citizens want to work for cool companies, and we’re not one. Also statistically very few citizens go to grad school in STEM fields, and we’re looking for folks with graduate-level education in our field. Our salary rates for citizens and non citizens are identical. The few citizens who apply to our non prestigious company are competing against a pool of talented H1Bs (not all H1Bs are body shop employees; many are graduates of fine American schools... we’re talking MIT and CMU), yet because of the pool they are in, they often come up short. The most competitive citizens tend not to want to work for non prestigious companies, so we get the less competitive citizen candidates and more competitive non citizens. I don’t want to say this is the norm out there, because it is not, but to those who have misgivings about H1Bs (the non body shop variety), I’d be interested to hear your stories about your experiences hiring and where/how you found your quality citizen/LPR talent pools (I’d be inclined to hear from employers and hiring managers rather than anecdotal hearsay about a friend of a friend).
davidgay 8y ago
> I fundamentally disagree with this statement. At top tech companies, I have come across enough mediocre hires who prepared enough for a technical interview to get "in" the company, but are otherwise doing very mundane work or require a ton of direction. That's easily viewable as evidence that offer is lower than demand: even the top (presumably, picky) top tech companies have had to resort to sub-par hires.