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I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or not, so I assume this is a serious comment. Can you share some examples of use cases where DLT is going to be transf

I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or not, so I assume this is a serious comment. Can you share some examples of use cases where DLT is going to be transformative?

Alex3917 8y ago
I mean a good example of the need for DLT is the fact that no one in the country can buy romaine lettuce right now. Does it really make any sense whatsoever that no one in the country can eat lettuce for the next couple months just because one farm got contaminated with E. coli?
- asynchrony 8y ago
  Putting lies into a blockchain doesn't make them true. Lettuce can still kill you in a post-blockchain society.
  - seibelj 8y ago
    No, but it isn’t about lying as a matter of business, that would easily be detected and caught in most cases, and a large amount of work to continually lie effectively. If you have employees and machines writing lots of data it’s infeasible to tamper with it in real-time. The tampering comes after the fact when a legal issue arises. The immutable nature of the ledger makes it an improvement over the past by preventing later tampering.
    - asynchrony 8y ago
      So why not use a central database and allow all stakeholders to replicate and keep their own logs of edits. It would be far more efficient. It would lack a certain buzzword though.
      - seibelj 8y ago
        A blockchain is a database optimized for that use case. Your desire to avoid the word blockchain is because you don’t like the connotations.
        asynchrony 8y ago
        A blockchain isn't optimal for anything. If it was there should be some evidence of it improving something in the real world, no? Something other than a cult of buzzwords and speculation.
        seibelj 8y ago
        It is optimal for situations where you don’t want to trust a central institution. An asset worth $70bil from zero in a decade (Bitcoin) should be considered a successful experiment even if it disappeared tomorrow. Pure computer science, math, and game theory created it, and it’s quite impressive.
        asynchrony 8y ago
        I’m not sure that the creation of an asset bubble is a good metric for success. How do you feel about pets.com and tulips?
        seibelj 8y ago
        We are far beyond anyone reading this thread other than us, and I am happy to continue discussing because I hope I can convince you that novel technology is being created to solve real problems. It isn't the panacea that fraudsters have been pushing, but I believe interesting solutions and companies will come of this. If you look at Bitcoin and the Proof of Work mining algorithm that was created to solve its BFT problem, what you have is a globally dispersed group of participants driving the cost of SHA2 hashing to as close to zero as possible. Electricity combined with computers can be converted to Bitcoin, which has value because a group of people believe it has value. You are optimizing everyone to solve that problem, and people are responding naturally to economic incentives. I believe other problems can be reduced to a Proof of Work distributed problem to drive the cost to zero. LivePeer ( https://livepeer.org/ https://livepeer.org/ ) is a recently launched protocol built on Ethereum to drive down the cost of transcoding live video. This is a computationally intensive process full of proprietary technology and patents that forces video streamers to become beholden to centralized third-parties such as YouTube, Twitch, etc. LivePeer solves this problem by incentivizing global participants to commit transcoding resources to an open network, ultimately driving the cost of this to zero. This will reduce censorship and costs. Beyond computationally intensive work and protocols, I believe that smart contracts will open up a range on novel use cases. For starters, pure digital assets will become a way to fund development of videogames. Free to play games like League of Legends and Fortnite sell in-game assets, but these are not unique - they sell as many copies as people buy. While this works for big players as a business model, I believe new, novel games will come from making game assets provably unique. These are just a few examples, but many very smart, non-crazy non-scammy people are working in this industry and creating new technologies. It's sad that the fraud has poisoned the conversation so much, especially on tech places like HN.
- simonw 8y ago
  Could you talk me through how a blockchain solution would help avoid this in a bit more detail? I've seen lots of vague "blockchain for supply chains is a great idea" pronouncements but I don't get how it would actually work.
  - Alex3917 8y ago
    Sure, so each party in the supply chain registers their private key with a PKI by going to the PKI's website (e.g. GoDaddy) and sticking their USB fob into their computer. The PKI associates the private key with an identity, and allows private keys to be voided and replaced if they get lost or whatever. Then as each head of lettuce is picked, it goes into a crate that's securely sealed and then signed with the farmer's private key in a way that originates that crate of produce on the ledger. When the farmer sells their produce to the middleman that transaction is also recorded, and so on, all the way to the end consumer who buys the produce in a grocery store or in a restaurant. (And consumers would just use their phones or credit cards for this, rather than using any sort of external fob.) Then when the first person gets sick they report their illness as per usual. Nothing happens at this stage, because there's no way to narrow down what made the person sick. By by the time the second person gets sick (with E. coli of the same genetic signature), now you can find the furthest place back in the supply chain where both people's purchases intercept. So you can now see if e.g. the contamination came from a single farm, and if so only recall lettuce from that farm rather than all romaine lettuce produced worldwide. Because the database is open anyone can download a copy, and there is no risk of a single entity imposing a 30% Apple tax on each head of lettuce or whatever. And each person benefits from participating, because it's a pareto improvement in terms of their profitability. (Now their products only get recalled when they are at fault, rather than their products getting recalled when anyone is at fault.)
    - beefield 8y ago
      How about the types of products that can't be stored in a secure package from producer to consumer through the supply chain but need somehow be processed within the supply chain? You know, at least something like 99.9999% of the products...
- chipotle_coyote 8y ago
  You seem to be suggesting that a distributed ledger would have made it possible for regulators or buyers to track the specific source of the contamination and pull it out of the food system. DLTs are starting to be used for that level of tracking for diamonds, but key to that system is the ability to establish a "fingerprint" for each diamond that involves a laser-inscribed serial number on each diamond. So to apply that, wouldn't we have to somehow register each individual head of lettuce with a tamperproof fingerprint? Just registering the bags the lettuce came in isn't good enough; the "farm" selling you their romaine might actually be selling you romaine from somewhere else that they've repackaged. (If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't be having this lettuce problem to start with.) And this is setting aside the possibility that lettuce might be leaved/shredded before packing and shipping, because now we have to put that tamperproof fingerprint on each and every leaf. Oh, also there's the thing about all the leaves actually being in contact with one another as they're shipped, so by the time the consumer actually eats the leaf and gets sick, the best you could possibly do is say "we think it's from one of these packagers." Maybe you're envisioning some other way entirely for Distributed Lettuce Technology* to solve this problem, I dunno. But I have trouble seeing it. *I'm sorry, but cut me some slack, the joke is RIGHT THERE
  - Alex3917 8y ago
    > the "farm" selling you their romaine might actually be selling you romaine from somewhere else that they've repackaged. Think about it from a game theory perspective. Under the status quo, each party in the supply chain maximizes their profit by lying about where their supplies came from. Whereas with DLT, each party maximizes their profit by being honest about where their supplies came from. As an example, let's say you hijack you a truck and swap out expensive lettuce for cheap lettuce in a way that circumvents whatever tamper proofing technology has been applied. Stuff like this happens all the time currently, and is wildly profitable. (That's why if you go to a sushi restaurant and get a bunch of assorted sushi pieces or rolls, there is roughly a 0% chance that your meal will actually consist of what you ordered.) With DLT though this is no longer profitable, because if you sell the cheap lettuce as expensive lettuce then you now have to sell the expensive lettuce as cheap lettuce, because each head or crate or whatever still needs to be traceable back to the source. This means that your total profit from the transaction is just whatever you would have made without cheating, plus your costs of hijacking the truck. So all in all, a substantial net loss.

I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or not, so I assume this is a serious comment. Can you share some examples of use cases where DLT is going to be transformative?

Alex3917 8y ago

I mean a good example of the need for DLT is the fact that no one in the country can buy romaine lettuce right now. Does it really make any sense whatsoever that no one in the country can eat lettuce for the next couple months just because one farm got contaminated with E. coli?

asynchrony 8y ago
Putting lies into a blockchain doesn't make them true. Lettuce can still kill you in a post-blockchain society.
- seibelj 8y ago
  No, but it isn’t about lying as a matter of business, that would easily be detected and caught in most cases, and a large amount of work to continually lie effectively. If you have employees and machines writing lots of data it’s infeasible to tamper with it in real-time. The tampering comes after the fact when a legal issue arises. The immutable nature of the ledger makes it an improvement over the past by preventing later tampering.
  - asynchrony 8y ago
    So why not use a central database and allow all stakeholders to replicate and keep their own logs of edits. It would be far more efficient. It would lack a certain buzzword though.
    - seibelj 8y ago
      A blockchain is a database optimized for that use case. Your desire to avoid the word blockchain is because you don’t like the connotations.
      - asynchrony 8y ago
        A blockchain isn't optimal for anything. If it was there should be some evidence of it improving something in the real world, no? Something other than a cult of buzzwords and speculation.
        seibelj 8y ago
        It is optimal for situations where you don’t want to trust a central institution. An asset worth $70bil from zero in a decade (Bitcoin) should be considered a successful experiment even if it disappeared tomorrow. Pure computer science, math, and game theory created it, and it’s quite impressive.
        asynchrony 8y ago
        I’m not sure that the creation of an asset bubble is a good metric for success. How do you feel about pets.com and tulips?
        seibelj 8y ago
        We are far beyond anyone reading this thread other than us, and I am happy to continue discussing because I hope I can convince you that novel technology is being created to solve real problems. It isn't the panacea that fraudsters have been pushing, but I believe interesting solutions and companies will come of this. If you look at Bitcoin and the Proof of Work mining algorithm that was created to solve its BFT problem, what you have is a globally dispersed group of participants driving the cost of SHA2 hashing to as close to zero as possible. Electricity combined with computers can be converted to Bitcoin, which has value because a group of people believe it has value. You are optimizing everyone to solve that problem, and people are responding naturally to economic incentives. I believe other problems can be reduced to a Proof of Work distributed problem to drive the cost to zero. LivePeer ( https://livepeer.org/ https://livepeer.org/ ) is a recently launched protocol built on Ethereum to drive down the cost of transcoding live video. This is a computationally intensive process full of proprietary technology and patents that forces video streamers to become beholden to centralized third-parties such as YouTube, Twitch, etc. LivePeer solves this problem by incentivizing global participants to commit transcoding resources to an open network, ultimately driving the cost of this to zero. This will reduce censorship and costs. Beyond computationally intensive work and protocols, I believe that smart contracts will open up a range on novel use cases. For starters, pure digital assets will become a way to fund development of videogames. Free to play games like League of Legends and Fortnite sell in-game assets, but these are not unique - they sell as many copies as people buy. While this works for big players as a business model, I believe new, novel games will come from making game assets provably unique. These are just a few examples, but many very smart, non-crazy non-scammy people are working in this industry and creating new technologies. It's sad that the fraud has poisoned the conversation so much, especially on tech places like HN.
simonw 8y ago
Could you talk me through how a blockchain solution would help avoid this in a bit more detail? I've seen lots of vague "blockchain for supply chains is a great idea" pronouncements but I don't get how it would actually work.
- Alex3917 8y ago
  Sure, so each party in the supply chain registers their private key with a PKI by going to the PKI's website (e.g. GoDaddy) and sticking their USB fob into their computer. The PKI associates the private key with an identity, and allows private keys to be voided and replaced if they get lost or whatever. Then as each head of lettuce is picked, it goes into a crate that's securely sealed and then signed with the farmer's private key in a way that originates that crate of produce on the ledger. When the farmer sells their produce to the middleman that transaction is also recorded, and so on, all the way to the end consumer who buys the produce in a grocery store or in a restaurant. (And consumers would just use their phones or credit cards for this, rather than using any sort of external fob.) Then when the first person gets sick they report their illness as per usual. Nothing happens at this stage, because there's no way to narrow down what made the person sick. By by the time the second person gets sick (with E. coli of the same genetic signature), now you can find the furthest place back in the supply chain where both people's purchases intercept. So you can now see if e.g. the contamination came from a single farm, and if so only recall lettuce from that farm rather than all romaine lettuce produced worldwide. Because the database is open anyone can download a copy, and there is no risk of a single entity imposing a 30% Apple tax on each head of lettuce or whatever. And each person benefits from participating, because it's a pareto improvement in terms of their profitability. (Now their products only get recalled when they are at fault, rather than their products getting recalled when anyone is at fault.)
  - beefield 8y ago
    How about the types of products that can't be stored in a secure package from producer to consumer through the supply chain but need somehow be processed within the supply chain? You know, at least something like 99.9999% of the products...
chipotle_coyote 8y ago
You seem to be suggesting that a distributed ledger would have made it possible for regulators or buyers to track the specific source of the contamination and pull it out of the food system. DLTs are starting to be used for that level of tracking for diamonds, but key to that system is the ability to establish a "fingerprint" for each diamond that involves a laser-inscribed serial number on each diamond. So to apply that, wouldn't we have to somehow register each individual head of lettuce with a tamperproof fingerprint? Just registering the bags the lettuce came in isn't good enough; the "farm" selling you their romaine might actually be selling you romaine from somewhere else that they've repackaged. (If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't be having this lettuce problem to start with.) And this is setting aside the possibility that lettuce might be leaved/shredded before packing and shipping, because now we have to put that tamperproof fingerprint on each and every leaf. Oh, also there's the thing about all the leaves actually being in contact with one another as they're shipped, so by the time the consumer actually eats the leaf and gets sick, the best you could possibly do is say "we think it's from one of these packagers." Maybe you're envisioning some other way entirely for Distributed Lettuce Technology* to solve this problem, I dunno. But I have trouble seeing it. *I'm sorry, but cut me some slack, the joke is RIGHT THERE
- Alex3917 8y ago
  > the "farm" selling you their romaine might actually be selling you romaine from somewhere else that they've repackaged. Think about it from a game theory perspective. Under the status quo, each party in the supply chain maximizes their profit by lying about where their supplies came from. Whereas with DLT, each party maximizes their profit by being honest about where their supplies came from. As an example, let's say you hijack you a truck and swap out expensive lettuce for cheap lettuce in a way that circumvents whatever tamper proofing technology has been applied. Stuff like this happens all the time currently, and is wildly profitable. (That's why if you go to a sushi restaurant and get a bunch of assorted sushi pieces or rolls, there is roughly a 0% chance that your meal will actually consist of what you ordered.) With DLT though this is no longer profitable, because if you sell the cheap lettuce as expensive lettuce then you now have to sell the expensive lettuce as cheap lettuce, because each head or crate or whatever still needs to be traceable back to the source. This means that your total profit from the transaction is just whatever you would have made without cheating, plus your costs of hijacking the truck. So all in all, a substantial net loss.