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>But this biases the playing field in favor of those graduating from American degree mills. Undergrad is very expensive in the US, even at some public universi

>But this biases the playing field in favor of those graduating from American degree mills. Undergrad is very expensive in the US, even at some public universities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this put American graduates at a disadvantage? If I attend a US public university and pay via loans, I'm now competing for a job with Indian and Chinese students who completed a graduate program (anecdotally, these candidates are preferred by HR and sometimes hiring managers). Alternatively, the US student can stay in school for a grad degree and take on more debt. That's the general pattern I've seen at the big tech companies anyway. Person A is from some tiny school in the Midwest and wanted to work here but never even got an interview after graduating. Person B is from Hyderabad who just graduated with a masters CS degree and is a new hire on the team. To be clear - I'm not arguing against immigration or blaming foreign students at all. I have observed that people in the category B rank are willing to take less pay and deal with a ton more bullshit (politics, grind, etc.) because it's not as easy to switch employers on their visa status. Some of these kids are brilliant, others are extremely ordinary, but they got the interview and the kid from the Arkansas school didn't.

whoisjuan 8y ago
The problem with this argument is that you're assuming that there's more offer than demand, when in fact is the opposite. This is why tech companies push hard for the H1-B program. It's possible that there's a large body of citizens with technical degrees that theoretically could fulfill those jobs, but that doesn't mean that they have the skills or the applied knowledge to perform at the standards required for those jobs. People like to poke at this argument, but any technical person knows that claiming that you know a technology (e.g: a programming language) doesn't equal to being great at working with that technology. Every company has the right to enforce a hiring standard and most top companies will have a very high one. I don't think this has to do at all with formal education but rather with experience and skill. This applies to anyone regardless of nationality or origin. Anecdotically, some of the best American born programmers I have met in my life, don't have an undergrad degree or dropped before graduating. They are all employed at top companies and have always managed to stay employed and keep growing their incomes steadily. Either way, H1-B is a mess and should change for the benefit of everyone affected directly and indirectly by it. This means American workers, internation students, foreign talent and companies.
- tracer4201 8y ago
  >The problem with this argument is that you're assuming that there's more offer than demand, when in fact is the opposite. I fundamentally disagree with this statement. At top tech companies, I have come across enough mediocre hires who prepared enough for a technical interview to get "in" the company, but are otherwise doing very mundane work or require a ton of direction. In industry, I've come across with even worse hires who couldn't even program. I don't believe there's a shortage of talent in this country.
  - whoisjuan 8y ago
    It might be an artificial shortage for sure. I also have seen terrible programmers and technical people in general gaming the technical interview and getting jobs that are beyond their abilities. However I do think that is not a binary issue that can be blamed on a single cause. There's a range of things that could affect the outcome of a hiring decision and if H1-B is one of those reasons (let's say out of bad faith someone hires under H1-B because they want to pay them less), then is obvious that there are many other factors and biases that are affecting the outcome of how technical talent is hired in the US. Croyinsm, sexism, racism, ageism, broken hiring practices, corporate politics; just to mention a few.
  - belltaco 8y ago
    >I don't believe there's a shortage of talent in this country. Do you have any experience in hiring people? East coast here and its impossible to find citizens who can code FizzBuzz. Those that can already have a job and don't come to interviews. There are multiple thousands of very high paying security related job openings that need citizens only, because of clearances. Zero percent unemployment: https://cybersecurityventures.com/cybersecurity-unemployment-rate/ https://cybersecurityventures.com/cybersecurity-unemployment... https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/tech-cybersecurity-zero-percent-unemployment-1016 https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/tech-cybersecu...
    - diggernet 8y ago
      And every one of those I've looked at in my area required a clearance, and wouldn't consider "clearable". You can't get a clearance without having a job that needs it. Without a clearance, you can't get a job that needs one unless the job accepts clearable candidates. By requiring a clearance they are fighting for people from a very limited pool. If they really want to fill those jobs they'd allow clearable candidates, which would allow them to pull from a much larger pool.
mavelikara 8y ago
> Undergrad is very expensive in the US, even at some public universities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this put American graduates at a disadvantage? Sorry, I realized that I missed a word there when I wrote that line. I meant: > But this biases the playing field in favor of those immigrants graduating from American degree mills.
- pm90 8y ago
  Wait so you’re saying that someone who puts in the effort to earn a graduate degree should not benefit from having had the initiative and putting in the work to earning this qualification?
  - mavelikara 8y ago
    No, I am saying that handing over immigration decisions to for-profit degree mills will lead to problems. For example, see news about Tri Valley University from few years ago [1]. [1] https://www.mercurynews.com/2011/01/20/tri-valley-university-called-sham-accused-of-immigration-fraud/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2011/01/20/tri-valley-university...
    - pm90 8y ago
      You picked one fake mill. There are over 1.1 million foreign graduate students. The foreign degree mill theory is not based on facts, only anecdotes.
      - mavelikara 8y ago
        Nobody, certainly not me, is disparaging the credentials of immigrant graduates from top American universities. But there exists a long tail of Universities, many of them who seem to exist solely as a pathway to fulfillment of the American Dream of immigrat students. See https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/us/international-enrollment-drop.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/us/international-enrollme... Consider two statements: A) Most immigrant graduates are of low caliber. B) Most immigrants of high caliber have graduate degrees. In my experience, both statements are true. Disclosure: Immigrant, hiring manager at reputed SV company, with UG degree from my home country.

whoisjuan 8y ago

The problem with this argument is that you're assuming that there's more offer than demand, when in fact is the opposite. This is why tech companies push hard for the H1-B program. It's possible that there's a large body of citizens with technical degrees that theoretically could fulfill those jobs, but that doesn't mean that they have the skills or the applied knowledge to perform at the standards required for those jobs. People like to poke at this argument, but any technical person knows that claiming that you know a technology (e.g: a programming language) doesn't equal to being great at working with that technology. Every company has the right to enforce a hiring standard and most top companies will have a very high one. I don't think this has to do at all with formal education but rather with experience and skill. This applies to anyone regardless of nationality or origin. Anecdotically, some of the best American born programmers I have met in my life, don't have an undergrad degree or dropped before graduating. They are all employed at top companies and have always managed to stay employed and keep growing their incomes steadily. Either way, H1-B is a mess and should change for the benefit of everyone affected directly and indirectly by it. This means American workers, internation students, foreign talent and companies.

tracer4201 8y ago
>The problem with this argument is that you're assuming that there's more offer than demand, when in fact is the opposite. I fundamentally disagree with this statement. At top tech companies, I have come across enough mediocre hires who prepared enough for a technical interview to get "in" the company, but are otherwise doing very mundane work or require a ton of direction. In industry, I've come across with even worse hires who couldn't even program. I don't believe there's a shortage of talent in this country.
- whoisjuan 8y ago
  It might be an artificial shortage for sure. I also have seen terrible programmers and technical people in general gaming the technical interview and getting jobs that are beyond their abilities. However I do think that is not a binary issue that can be blamed on a single cause. There's a range of things that could affect the outcome of a hiring decision and if H1-B is one of those reasons (let's say out of bad faith someone hires under H1-B because they want to pay them less), then is obvious that there are many other factors and biases that are affecting the outcome of how technical talent is hired in the US. Croyinsm, sexism, racism, ageism, broken hiring practices, corporate politics; just to mention a few.
- belltaco 8y ago
  >I don't believe there's a shortage of talent in this country. Do you have any experience in hiring people? East coast here and its impossible to find citizens who can code FizzBuzz. Those that can already have a job and don't come to interviews. There are multiple thousands of very high paying security related job openings that need citizens only, because of clearances. Zero percent unemployment: https://cybersecurityventures.com/cybersecurity-unemployment-rate/ https://cybersecurityventures.com/cybersecurity-unemployment... https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/tech-cybersecurity-zero-percent-unemployment-1016 https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/tech-cybersecu...
  - diggernet 8y ago
    And every one of those I've looked at in my area required a clearance, and wouldn't consider "clearable". You can't get a clearance without having a job that needs it. Without a clearance, you can't get a job that needs one unless the job accepts clearable candidates. By requiring a clearance they are fighting for people from a very limited pool. If they really want to fill those jobs they'd allow clearable candidates, which would allow them to pull from a much larger pool.

mavelikara 8y ago

> Undergrad is very expensive in the US, even at some public universities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this put American graduates at a disadvantage? Sorry, I realized that I missed a word there when I wrote that line. I meant: > But this biases the playing field in favor of those immigrants graduating from American degree mills.

pm90 8y ago
Wait so you’re saying that someone who puts in the effort to earn a graduate degree should not benefit from having had the initiative and putting in the work to earning this qualification?
- mavelikara 8y ago
  No, I am saying that handing over immigration decisions to for-profit degree mills will lead to problems. For example, see news about Tri Valley University from few years ago [1]. [1] https://www.mercurynews.com/2011/01/20/tri-valley-university-called-sham-accused-of-immigration-fraud/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2011/01/20/tri-valley-university...
  - pm90 8y ago
    You picked one fake mill. There are over 1.1 million foreign graduate students. The foreign degree mill theory is not based on facts, only anecdotes.
    - mavelikara 8y ago
      Nobody, certainly not me, is disparaging the credentials of immigrant graduates from top American universities. But there exists a long tail of Universities, many of them who seem to exist solely as a pathway to fulfillment of the American Dream of immigrat students. See https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/us/international-enrollment-drop.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/us/international-enrollme... Consider two statements: A) Most immigrant graduates are of low caliber. B) Most immigrants of high caliber have graduate degrees. In my experience, both statements are true. Disclosure: Immigrant, hiring manager at reputed SV company, with UG degree from my home country.