12 ms·

H-1B visa shift may favor tech companies

133 points by tareqak 8y ago

screye 8y ago
> The lottery change could be aimed at hindering those outsourcing firms’ applications, Rand said. Three Indian firms, Tata Consultancy Services, Infosys and Wipro, have dominated H-1B applications since 2012, government data shows. This would be great. Almost, all my well qualified peers (on F-1,or H1B) hate the contract coding body shops. Even people who end up working there, hate their time over there, and often choose it as a way to stay in the US, until they get a "proper" job. Assuming there isn't some hidden fine script that screws qualified people over, this should help weed out the bad actors, without changing much else. > In addition to the new lottery order, the department also proposed a new way for companies to enter their H-1B visa applicants into the lottery. Right now, employers have to prepare a full petition for each applicant before they’re picked. The proposed rule change would let employers register them online before the lottery, and work on their cases only if applicants are selected. I wonder if this will make companies more likely to hire h1b candidates, as the legal expense only manifests after they are picked in the lottery. I am glad they did not put sweeping salary requirements into place. This would have hurt many competent candidates who joined startups (where stocks > base pay) or ones in engineering fields where salaries have historically been much lower than that in the CS industry.
mavelikara 8y ago
> The Department of Homeland Security wants to switch the order of these lotteries, it said in a notice of the proposed rule change, which would — somewhat counterintuitively — improve the odds for those highly educated workers > ... with a master’s or doctoral degree from an American college or university This is a welcome change. But this biases the playing field in favor of those graduating from American degree mills. As a counter-measure against abuse from those, I hope DHS also intensifies scrutiny on the many American staffing companies who bend the H-1B rules to hire these foreign graduates. There is indication that they have started on it, for example [1]. Also, > The lottery change could be aimed at hindering those outsourcing firms’ applications, Rand said. Three Indian firms, Tata Consultancy Services, Infosys and Wipro, have dominated H-1B applications since 2012, government data shows. > “Most of the visas are snapped up by these body shops,” said Ira Mehlman, a spokesman for the Federation for American Immigration Reform, or FAIR. Tata Consultancy Services, Infosys and Wipro are outsourcing companies, not "body shops". Body shops are staffing companies - they are mostly American and run out of places like Edison. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18425341 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18425341
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Staffing companies should get no H1 visas at all. They are the biggest abusers.
  - belltaco 8y ago
    The key problem is that the visa is given to the company, not the person, leaving the employee at the mercy of the company, leading to abuses like underpay and overwork in even direct jobs. If you lose your job, you lose your green card application if it's not past a certain stage and may have to leave the country immediately in case of layoffs, being fired. The rules are byzantine and a bureacratic nightmare with long processing delays. The Trump administration even tried to make it so that if you're working legally while waiting on your extension visa(can take more than 8 months) and it happens to get rejected, they will report you to ICE for deportation proceedings calling the period you worked legally as being illegal, creating a Catch-22 where you're accruing illegal stay after you have to stop working, but cannot leave the country because you're waiting for a court date, since not showing up in a court is another new crime in itself. You have to live without a salary and being able to work at all, and the immigration courts are overloaded and once you accrue 6 months of illegal stay, you can be banned from entering the US for 10 years on any visa. If you think that sounds too ridiculous to be true, read this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/07/11/new-uscis-policy-will-carry-harsh-consequences-for-applicants/#632d7dea4615 https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/07/11/new-u... This is the reason that many talented folks prefer to work for companies on a contract through a staffing company that holds the visa that allows for easier job hopping without losing your chance of getting a green card, or getting fired on Friday and accruing illegal stay starting from Saturday. Otherwise, why would you give away 40% to >50% of your hourly rate to a middleman? In this new environment, if you somehow get caught in an ICE raid while selling your car for pennies and puting all your belongings that dont fit in luggage in the dumpster or whilepacking your bags, you might get shipped to jail inspite of not violating a single law before you got fired. The companies oppose these fixes because they will less leverage over their employees on visas and they might job hop more if underpaid or overworked. Fix these problems instead of creating weird custom rules against staffing companies and the problem will fix itself for the most part.
Matthias247 8y ago
It might decrease the chances for outsourcing shops. But it also decreases the chance for everyone else who has not studied in the US. E.g. myself (european degree, with various jobs at leading tech companies in their field) would have an even worse chance than it is already at the moment.
- pm90 8y ago
  Most countries give somewhat preferential treatment to graduates of their own Universities (including most European ones). Why shouldn’t the US? Foreign graduates who earn a degree from the US have: * already contributed to the American economy * demonstrated some amount of “success” in American education and social system * likely have created social and work networks that allow them to succeed after graduation So from the perspective of choosing folks who are both 1) Skilled and 2) Will likely adapt/succeed in American society and economy, the case for favoring US University degrees seems reasonable.
oh_sigh 8y ago
Why not just go to an auction system, where the group that is going to give the highest salary gets the visa? You could adjust it for CoL so all H1Bs don't end up in SF and NYC. What would be bad about this system?
- belltaco 8y ago
  The big companies with huge pockets will set up shop in small low CoL places and squeeze out smaller research companies out of talented graduate students in high expertise niche fields like research in EE, AI etc. They will be able to outbid anyone local easily since they're already paying a lot for them in SF/NYC/DC/Seattle/Portland/Austin etc.
  - foobiekr 8y ago
    Your downsides are noted and possible, but the big picture of building out in other areas isn't necessarily a bad thing at all. The local bidders already have to compete with remote offers and people leaving.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    That would possible be good for the low cost areas. Right now everybody crowds in high cost areas so if this would cause them to spread out I think this would be good for the country.
  - stale2002 8y ago
    Yes, they might do this. I am confused as to why you think this is a bad thing. I think it would be an amazing development that would only help engineers to get paid more. If these nich fields aren't able to afford to pay engineers the market salary, then I say screw them. They deserve the negative consequences. Nothing would make me happier than for employers who are underpaying people, to be punished.
    - belltaco 8y ago
      They are research labs that are hiring Masters students and PhDs just out of college, working on cutting edge technologies. Salary alone doesn't mean talent.
gumby 8y ago
I know it's a small constituency, but this makes it difficult for foreign-language schools who want to hire teachers from the "source" country. The timing uncertainty and calendar schedule simply doesn't work. I am sure there are many such tiny segments.
- woolvalley 8y ago
  If your university associated, then you have an unlimited H1-B queue! Not much of a solution, but it is a solution that isn't available to most business types.
jlarocco 8y ago
Duh. H-1B has always favored tech companies because it increases the labor supply and indirectly decreases salaries. Perfect example of how companies only want free markets when it benefits them. Honestly, I was hoping Trump would end the entire program, but who am I kidding? Google and friends spend way too much on lobbying for that to happen.
- TomMckenny 8y ago
  There is zero possibility Trump or the republicans are going to do anything to raise wages relative to revenue, even if it were a side effect of whipping of ethnic rage. For the democrats, the possibility rounds to zero.
- davidw 8y ago
  You realize that those companies will just open up offices elsewhere if they can't bring people here, right?
  - mynameishere 8y ago
    You realize that most people opposed to mass immigration are okay with that, right? It's not a compelling argument. Let them open offices back home. Fine. You have your office, and we'll still have a country.
- drivebycomment 8y ago
  > Perfect example of how companies only want free markets when it benefits them. There are many cases where corporations show hypocritical behavior, but this criticism seems off the mark as the companies actually do want free market in this case (i.e. free labor market where they can get a labor from anywhere), and in this case, they are not getting it (there's a lot of legal barrier making it difficult to import labor - thus it is a protected market). They want less protection in this case to favor them. It sounds like you want more protection, which is a reasonable position, but that's not a free or free-er market.
  - jlarocco 8y ago
starbeast 8y ago
Hey, just like it says on the Statue of Liberty; "Give me your productive, your rich, your educated classes yearning for an H-1B..."
brucehoult 8y ago
As a person from New Zealand without an advanced degree (from anywhere) but with 30+ years industry experience (and previously granted an H-1B in 2001), this seems like the wrong way to tackle the problem of Indian body shops. I was selected in this year's lottery in April and am still waiting for them to start processing the case -- according to their web site it could easily take until sometime in February, ten months after submitting the paperwork. Thank goodness I'm able to do contract work for the company remotely in the meantime. As for pushing US salaries down ... my salary is well into six figures, thank you. And was, even in my previous job, in Moscow. If you want to hinder the Indian meat market companies, how about putting in a per country quota, as there is for Green card? Or, just get moving with the proposed increase in the minimum salary from $60k to $130k. I'm above that already, but apparently most of the Indians aren't. And the processing times are criminal. It's probably going to be a year from submitting the paperwork until actually moving to the US -- and with six months of the three years of the visa (starting October 1) already gone. Getting the Russian equivalent "Highly Skilled Specialist" visa (3 years, plus one 3 year renewal, minimum salary 2 million rubles a year) only took two months.
- nxc18 8y ago
  Some companies would be decimated (literally) by a move from 60k to 130k... But it would definitely cut down on abuse or result in a big raise for the locals.
  - RandomInteger4 8y ago
    I don't think they would be decimated; they would just have to alter the heuristics of the automated resume -> trash bin filters so that they select from the candidates they've been ignoring for absurd reasons.
- briandear 8y ago
  But you have over 20 years of experience. Most H1Bs aren’t at that level so your six figures isn’t a good comparison.
- mavelikara 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
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throw3322 8y ago
Merit-based visa system used by Canada and Australia should be preferred. It is better for the country (more fluid job market; more long-term high-quality immigrants who will contribute more to social security and other social needs; increased competitiveness of companies and startups; larger tax base), the immigrants (more freedom to change companies), and the Americans (less need to compete with people accepting low wage to gain corporate sponsorship of a future permanent visa; more funding for social security).
- pentae 8y ago
  The problem with the merit based visa system is it locks out highly talented self-taught individuals without college degrees. There's a lot of them in tech. Even though they have tons of experience in their respected fields the 'merit' systems are weighed heavily on education.
  - Eridrus 8y ago
    I think that, more than just locking people out, it incentivises people to acquire credentials they don't need.
  - amf12 8y ago
    Well this is immigration we are talking about. Generally people without college degrees don't even get a H1 visa to come and work in the US. So its not really a problem with the merit based system. Infact a merit based system which does not require college degree and simply provides some points is better suited to such individuals as they could get high score in other factors.
    - pentae 8y ago
      I know a few of them. I was one of them but on an E3 (Australian version of a H1-B). This is the problem with generalising, you screw over lots of people.
godelmachine 8y ago
They have raised the chances of folks with advanced degress getting hired by a paltry 16%, or 5000 in number to be exact. Is this a significant difference?
- repsilat 8y ago
  The regulatory bang-for-buck is pretty high, though -- no complex rule-making, no significant change in procedure, just a 16% bump for practically nothing.
  - godelmachine 8y ago
    I see, but can't they do that anytime they want? I mean, they can do it by 50% even if they so wish, why aim for 16%?
    - repsilat 8y ago
      They're not aiming for 16%. They're not changing any of the numbers involved, they're just changing the order of two dice rolls. It's a creative little rejig they probably hadn't thought to do before (or perhaps previous administrations hadn't wanted to do it before.)
      - godelmachine 8y ago
        Now the clouds are parting. Thanks for your explaination :)
chvid 8y ago
There are similar policy changes being discussed and or implemented all over the world. In my opinion there should be a discriminatory reciprocal system based on the country you are from. Meaning a high income country like Norway should set up a reciprocal residency for work program with say Australia that would have more relaxed conditions than the general program. Similar to how visa free travel works. The economic incentive in migrating from a poor to a rich country are just too dominating at the detriment of both the poor country (which looses educated workforce) and the rich country (whose citizens face heavily skewed labor competition in some areas).
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
chrisper 8y ago
Now people who graduate with a bachelors from an American University will have even less of a chance of getting a visa?
jopsen 8y ago
Too little... Wow, that change is not very ambitious. Abuse could be solved by simply requiring a salary above 100k, and verify this with the IRS. Then banning companies who seem to fail this. It's crude, but simple. As for the number 100k, I suppose you could let each state set its own number. Or let the administration change it at it sees fit. Yeah, these ideas aren't perfect, but why let that get in the way of good.
tgsovlerkhgsel 8y ago
Why this change though, instead of changing to a pay-based system (give visas to the 85k workers with the highest salaries)?
- raverbashing 8y ago
  Probably because it would actually solve the problem (or just give an extra ticket per application for every 10k above a certain yearly salary value, for example)
brad_Saggy 8y ago
This will probably encourage more and more fake universities to offer "Masters" programs. ex: [1] [1] https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/04/24/international-technological-university-san-jose-college-foreign-students/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/04/24/international-t...
ourcat 8y ago
Something something Sherlock. It was not like this back in 'the day', by the way. Not that anyone actually cares.
null000 8y ago
On the one hand, screw outsourcing firms. On the other hand, this really isn't the reform these visas need right now. Lets work on the fact that visa holders live and die by their employers whims first, giving them basically zero leverage in an already low-leverage situation and diluting the value of native workers at the same time. This should come first if we're going to muck with anything, considering that's the raging dumpster fire consuming most of the towering garbage heap that is the h1-b visa process, imo.
chillydawg 8y ago
-Gather all applications, with salary information for the offered job that must be correct by law, else $lol fines for everyone. -Sort the applications by pay, descending. -Approve the top-k. -Deny the rest. Let the market sort it out.
aristophenes 8y ago
We have a simple system we use to determine the value of many things. Money. Whichever applicants are bringing in the highest salary should be picked. It’s kind of crazy that a genius with specialized skills is in the same process as the warm bodies the outsourcing firms are dumping in there. Salaries should be paid a year in advance to the government, who then passes it to the workers, to ensure the high salary is real. Then, so the workers aren’t locked, slavelike, into a particular company, they should have the option to stay in the country for at least the amount of time they were working, looking for a new job. Starting with a year minimum. And their visa stays with them, not the company, subject to minimum salary requirements.
Sreyanth 8y ago
Might be an unpopular opinion, but I think H1B should slowly move to something like an EB1, where candidates can file a self-petition (but without immigration intent, and apply for a regular GC after a few years if they really want to immigrate). They can set some criteria for testing 'high skills'. This way, a candidate can choose a company based on their interest and skill set match, rather than filtering by whether a company sponsors a H1B. Sure, even EB1 is being gamed, but at the very least this is a fair chance to candidates. - Eliminating the not-so-random 'lottery' - Avoiding the body shops or the so-called fake consulting companies where students go for their OPT - Eliminate the need to succumb to the whims of employers just to get a visa sponsorship - Companies, big or small, need not worry about not hiring skillful employees, just because 'it is a looong and random process' - Not entirely based on higher salaries. Sure, a high salary is a pseudo metric to indicate high skill, but what about early stage startups? This eliminates that unfair advantage
- nnd 8y ago
  This already exists - the O-1 visa. EB1 is a green card type, you are confusing visas with residency permits here.
  - Sreyanth 8y ago
    I don't think you can self-petition for an O-1 without job offer (at least that is what I remember). Just checked again, just to be sure [0]. I didn't suggest a new category in EBX, I said something similar for a visa where one can self-petition without a job offer, get the visa and work for whichever company she wants to work for, all without a need for an employer sponsorship. "self-petition without a job offer" being the key phrase. [0] https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/o-1-visa-individuals-extraordinary-ability-or-achievement https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...
    - nnd 8y ago
      Technically you need a registered company to "sponsor" you, but it can be your own company, where you are CEO and have 100% ownership. In the end, it's just a formality, the visa is granted on a personal basis. Compared to H1B where USCIS relies on a company to establish your credibility as a skilled worker, with O-1 they evaluate credibility themselves via multiple factors mostly involving peer validation (i.e. publications, articles, etc). So yes, technically you need a job offer for O-1, but it's just a formality. Personally, I agree that it doesn't make much rational sense either, but then again barely anything makes sense when it comes to (US) immigration laws.
nnd 8y ago
It appears that this change would only benefit holders of advanced degrees from US universities, and make the situation worse for highly skilled immigrants in general.
jefftk 8y ago
We should auction these spots off, so the companies which get the most economic value from bringing people in can do so. I like implementing this by ordering applications by salary, but you could also have some part go to the government.
yholio 8y ago
>Graham said he will recommend clients prepare their full cases as they normally would. That means hiring an immigration attorney, collecting the necessary documents I don't understand, why is this whole heavy bureaucracy necessary? The employer should pledge to pay an above average paycheck and the respective taxes, say 100K for 5 years, and the employee should commit to maintain employment to either his sponsor or any other employer willing to pay him at least say 75% of the original pledge, with a decent job seeking hiatus. This creates a nice market dinamic where only highly skilled people are brought in, because their skills make them valuable on the labour market guaranteing their future employment, without abusing their circumstances or depressing the wages of lower skilled nationals. In retrospect, this could never fly because it also affects professions with strong lobbies, like doctors. The lobbies in tech are one-sided to the employers interests, which of course need to sell a "tech labour crisis" before they are allowed to depress the wages of their own laborers. Cue in bureaucrats and bottom feeders.
loopycode 8y ago
Feels like modern day complicated depressing slavery
known 8y ago
Too little and too late since Indians mastered the art of corruption https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2016/09/22/india-is-the-fastest-growing-source-of-new-illegal-immigrants-to-the-u-s/ https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2016/09/22/india-is-the-... and http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-most-corrupt-while-doing-business-abroad.htm http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-...

133 points by tareqak 8y ago

> The lottery change could be aimed at hindering those outsourcing firms’ applications, Rand said. Three Indian firms, Tata Consultancy Services, Infosys and Wipro, have dominated H-1B applications since 2012, government data shows. This would be great. Almost, all my well qualified peers (on F-1,or H1B) hate the contract coding body shops. Even people who end up working there, hate their time over there, and often choose it as a way to stay in the US, until they get a "proper" job. Assuming there isn't some hidden fine script that screws qualified people over, this should help weed out the bad actors, without changing much else. > In addition to the new lottery order, the department also proposed a new way for companies to enter their H-1B visa applicants into the lottery. Right now, employers have to prepare a full petition for each applicant before they’re picked. The proposed rule change would let employers register them online before the lottery, and work on their cases only if applicants are selected. I wonder if this will make companies more likely to hire h1b candidates, as the legal expense only manifests after they are picked in the lottery. I am glad they did not put sweeping salary requirements into place. This would have hurt many competent candidates who joined startups (where stocks > base pay) or ones in engineering fields where salaries have historically been much lower than that in the CS industry.

mavelikara 8y ago

> The Department of Homeland Security wants to switch the order of these lotteries, it said in a notice of the proposed rule change, which would — somewhat counterintuitively — improve the odds for those highly educated workers > ... with a master’s or doctoral degree from an American college or university This is a welcome change. But this biases the playing field in favor of those graduating from American degree mills. As a counter-measure against abuse from those, I hope DHS also intensifies scrutiny on the many American staffing companies who bend the H-1B rules to hire these foreign graduates. There is indication that they have started on it, for example [1]. Also, > The lottery change could be aimed at hindering those outsourcing firms’ applications, Rand said. Three Indian firms, Tata Consultancy Services, Infosys and Wipro, have dominated H-1B applications since 2012, government data shows. > “Most of the visas are snapped up by these body shops,” said Ira Mehlman, a spokesman for the Federation for American Immigration Reform, or FAIR. Tata Consultancy Services, Infosys and Wipro are outsourcing companies, not "body shops". Body shops are staffing companies - they are mostly American and run out of places like Edison. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18425341 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18425341

maxxxxx 8y ago
Staffing companies should get no H1 visas at all. They are the biggest abusers.
- belltaco 8y ago
  The key problem is that the visa is given to the company, not the person, leaving the employee at the mercy of the company, leading to abuses like underpay and overwork in even direct jobs. If you lose your job, you lose your green card application if it's not past a certain stage and may have to leave the country immediately in case of layoffs, being fired. The rules are byzantine and a bureacratic nightmare with long processing delays. The Trump administration even tried to make it so that if you're working legally while waiting on your extension visa(can take more than 8 months) and it happens to get rejected, they will report you to ICE for deportation proceedings calling the period you worked legally as being illegal, creating a Catch-22 where you're accruing illegal stay after you have to stop working, but cannot leave the country because you're waiting for a court date, since not showing up in a court is another new crime in itself. You have to live without a salary and being able to work at all, and the immigration courts are overloaded and once you accrue 6 months of illegal stay, you can be banned from entering the US for 10 years on any visa. If you think that sounds too ridiculous to be true, read this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/07/11/new-uscis-policy-will-carry-harsh-consequences-for-applicants/#632d7dea4615 https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/07/11/new-u... This is the reason that many talented folks prefer to work for companies on a contract through a staffing company that holds the visa that allows for easier job hopping without losing your chance of getting a green card, or getting fired on Friday and accruing illegal stay starting from Saturday. Otherwise, why would you give away 40% to >50% of your hourly rate to a middleman? In this new environment, if you somehow get caught in an ICE raid while selling your car for pennies and puting all your belongings that dont fit in luggage in the dumpster or whilepacking your bags, you might get shipped to jail inspite of not violating a single law before you got fired. The companies oppose these fixes because they will less leverage over their employees on visas and they might job hop more if underpaid or overworked. Fix these problems instead of creating weird custom rules against staffing companies and the problem will fix itself for the most part.

Matthias247 8y ago

It might decrease the chances for outsourcing shops. But it also decreases the chance for everyone else who has not studied in the US. E.g. myself (european degree, with various jobs at leading tech companies in their field) would have an even worse chance than it is already at the moment.

pm90 8y ago
Most countries give somewhat preferential treatment to graduates of their own Universities (including most European ones). Why shouldn’t the US? Foreign graduates who earn a degree from the US have: * already contributed to the American economy * demonstrated some amount of “success” in American education and social system * likely have created social and work networks that allow them to succeed after graduation So from the perspective of choosing folks who are both 1) Skilled and 2) Will likely adapt/succeed in American society and economy, the case for favoring US University degrees seems reasonable.

oh_sigh 8y ago

Why not just go to an auction system, where the group that is going to give the highest salary gets the visa? You could adjust it for CoL so all H1Bs don't end up in SF and NYC. What would be bad about this system?

belltaco 8y ago
The big companies with huge pockets will set up shop in small low CoL places and squeeze out smaller research companies out of talented graduate students in high expertise niche fields like research in EE, AI etc. They will be able to outbid anyone local easily since they're already paying a lot for them in SF/NYC/DC/Seattle/Portland/Austin etc.
- foobiekr 8y ago
  Your downsides are noted and possible, but the big picture of building out in other areas isn't necessarily a bad thing at all. The local bidders already have to compete with remote offers and people leaving.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  That would possible be good for the low cost areas. Right now everybody crowds in high cost areas so if this would cause them to spread out I think this would be good for the country.
- stale2002 8y ago
  Yes, they might do this. I am confused as to why you think this is a bad thing. I think it would be an amazing development that would only help engineers to get paid more. If these nich fields aren't able to afford to pay engineers the market salary, then I say screw them. They deserve the negative consequences. Nothing would make me happier than for employers who are underpaying people, to be punished.
  - belltaco 8y ago
    They are research labs that are hiring Masters students and PhDs just out of college, working on cutting edge technologies. Salary alone doesn't mean talent.

gumby 8y ago

I know it's a small constituency, but this makes it difficult for foreign-language schools who want to hire teachers from the "source" country. The timing uncertainty and calendar schedule simply doesn't work. I am sure there are many such tiny segments.

woolvalley 8y ago
If your university associated, then you have an unlimited H1-B queue! Not much of a solution, but it is a solution that isn't available to most business types.

jlarocco 8y ago

Duh. H-1B has always favored tech companies because it increases the labor supply and indirectly decreases salaries. Perfect example of how companies only want free markets when it benefits them. Honestly, I was hoping Trump would end the entire program, but who am I kidding? Google and friends spend way too much on lobbying for that to happen.

TomMckenny 8y ago
There is zero possibility Trump or the republicans are going to do anything to raise wages relative to revenue, even if it were a side effect of whipping of ethnic rage. For the democrats, the possibility rounds to zero.
davidw 8y ago
You realize that those companies will just open up offices elsewhere if they can't bring people here, right?
- mynameishere 8y ago
  You realize that most people opposed to mass immigration are okay with that, right? It's not a compelling argument. Let them open offices back home. Fine. You have your office, and we'll still have a country.
drivebycomment 8y ago
> Perfect example of how companies only want free markets when it benefits them. There are many cases where corporations show hypocritical behavior, but this criticism seems off the mark as the companies actually do want free market in this case (i.e. free labor market where they can get a labor from anywhere), and in this case, they are not getting it (there's a lot of legal barrier making it difficult to import labor - thus it is a protected market). They want less protection in this case to favor them. It sounds like you want more protection, which is a reasonable position, but that's not a free or free-er market.
- jlarocco 8y ago

starbeast 8y ago

Hey, just like it says on the Statue of Liberty; "Give me your productive, your rich, your educated classes yearning for an H-1B..."

brucehoult 8y ago

As a person from New Zealand without an advanced degree (from anywhere) but with 30+ years industry experience (and previously granted an H-1B in 2001), this seems like the wrong way to tackle the problem of Indian body shops. I was selected in this year's lottery in April and am still waiting for them to start processing the case -- according to their web site it could easily take until sometime in February, ten months after submitting the paperwork. Thank goodness I'm able to do contract work for the company remotely in the meantime. As for pushing US salaries down ... my salary is well into six figures, thank you. And was, even in my previous job, in Moscow. If you want to hinder the Indian meat market companies, how about putting in a per country quota, as there is for Green card? Or, just get moving with the proposed increase in the minimum salary from $60k to $130k. I'm above that already, but apparently most of the Indians aren't. And the processing times are criminal. It's probably going to be a year from submitting the paperwork until actually moving to the US -- and with six months of the three years of the visa (starting October 1) already gone. Getting the Russian equivalent "Highly Skilled Specialist" visa (3 years, plus one 3 year renewal, minimum salary 2 million rubles a year) only took two months.

nxc18 8y ago
Some companies would be decimated (literally) by a move from 60k to 130k... But it would definitely cut down on abuse or result in a big raise for the locals.
- RandomInteger4 8y ago
  I don't think they would be decimated; they would just have to alter the heuristics of the automated resume -> trash bin filters so that they select from the candidates they've been ignoring for absurd reasons.
briandear 8y ago
But you have over 20 years of experience. Most H1Bs aren’t at that level so your six figures isn’t a good comparison.
mavelikara 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

throw3322 8y ago

Merit-based visa system used by Canada and Australia should be preferred. It is better for the country (more fluid job market; more long-term high-quality immigrants who will contribute more to social security and other social needs; increased competitiveness of companies and startups; larger tax base), the immigrants (more freedom to change companies), and the Americans (less need to compete with people accepting low wage to gain corporate sponsorship of a future permanent visa; more funding for social security).

pentae 8y ago
The problem with the merit based visa system is it locks out highly talented self-taught individuals without college degrees. There's a lot of them in tech. Even though they have tons of experience in their respected fields the 'merit' systems are weighed heavily on education.
- Eridrus 8y ago
  I think that, more than just locking people out, it incentivises people to acquire credentials they don't need.
- amf12 8y ago
  Well this is immigration we are talking about. Generally people without college degrees don't even get a H1 visa to come and work in the US. So its not really a problem with the merit based system. Infact a merit based system which does not require college degree and simply provides some points is better suited to such individuals as they could get high score in other factors.
  - pentae 8y ago
    I know a few of them. I was one of them but on an E3 (Australian version of a H1-B). This is the problem with generalising, you screw over lots of people.

godelmachine 8y ago

They have raised the chances of folks with advanced degress getting hired by a paltry 16%, or 5000 in number to be exact. Is this a significant difference?

repsilat 8y ago
The regulatory bang-for-buck is pretty high, though -- no complex rule-making, no significant change in procedure, just a 16% bump for practically nothing.
- godelmachine 8y ago
  I see, but can't they do that anytime they want? I mean, they can do it by 50% even if they so wish, why aim for 16%?
  - repsilat 8y ago
    They're not aiming for 16%. They're not changing any of the numbers involved, they're just changing the order of two dice rolls. It's a creative little rejig they probably hadn't thought to do before (or perhaps previous administrations hadn't wanted to do it before.)
    - godelmachine 8y ago
      Now the clouds are parting. Thanks for your explaination :)

chvid 8y ago

There are similar policy changes being discussed and or implemented all over the world. In my opinion there should be a discriminatory reciprocal system based on the country you are from. Meaning a high income country like Norway should set up a reciprocal residency for work program with say Australia that would have more relaxed conditions than the general program. Similar to how visa free travel works. The economic incentive in migrating from a poor to a rich country are just too dominating at the detriment of both the poor country (which looses educated workforce) and the rich country (whose citizens face heavily skewed labor competition in some areas).

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

chrisper 8y ago

Now people who graduate with a bachelors from an American University will have even less of a chance of getting a visa?

jopsen 8y ago

Too little... Wow, that change is not very ambitious. Abuse could be solved by simply requiring a salary above 100k, and verify this with the IRS. Then banning companies who seem to fail this. It's crude, but simple. As for the number 100k, I suppose you could let each state set its own number. Or let the administration change it at it sees fit. Yeah, these ideas aren't perfect, but why let that get in the way of good.

tgsovlerkhgsel 8y ago

Why this change though, instead of changing to a pay-based system (give visas to the 85k workers with the highest salaries)?

raverbashing 8y ago
Probably because it would actually solve the problem (or just give an extra ticket per application for every 10k above a certain yearly salary value, for example)

brad_Saggy 8y ago

This will probably encourage more and more fake universities to offer "Masters" programs. ex: [1] [1] https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/04/24/international-technological-university-san-jose-college-foreign-students/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/04/24/international-t...

ourcat 8y ago

Something something Sherlock. It was not like this back in 'the day', by the way. Not that anyone actually cares.

null000 8y ago

On the one hand, screw outsourcing firms. On the other hand, this really isn't the reform these visas need right now. Lets work on the fact that visa holders live and die by their employers whims first, giving them basically zero leverage in an already low-leverage situation and diluting the value of native workers at the same time. This should come first if we're going to muck with anything, considering that's the raging dumpster fire consuming most of the towering garbage heap that is the h1-b visa process, imo.

chillydawg 8y ago

-Gather all applications, with salary information for the offered job that must be correct by law, else $lol fines for everyone. -Sort the applications by pay, descending. -Approve the top-k. -Deny the rest. Let the market sort it out.

aristophenes 8y ago

We have a simple system we use to determine the value of many things. Money. Whichever applicants are bringing in the highest salary should be picked. It’s kind of crazy that a genius with specialized skills is in the same process as the warm bodies the outsourcing firms are dumping in there. Salaries should be paid a year in advance to the government, who then passes it to the workers, to ensure the high salary is real. Then, so the workers aren’t locked, slavelike, into a particular company, they should have the option to stay in the country for at least the amount of time they were working, looking for a new job. Starting with a year minimum. And their visa stays with them, not the company, subject to minimum salary requirements.

Sreyanth 8y ago

Might be an unpopular opinion, but I think H1B should slowly move to something like an EB1, where candidates can file a self-petition (but without immigration intent, and apply for a regular GC after a few years if they really want to immigrate). They can set some criteria for testing 'high skills'. This way, a candidate can choose a company based on their interest and skill set match, rather than filtering by whether a company sponsors a H1B. Sure, even EB1 is being gamed, but at the very least this is a fair chance to candidates. - Eliminating the not-so-random 'lottery' - Avoiding the body shops or the so-called fake consulting companies where students go for their OPT - Eliminate the need to succumb to the whims of employers just to get a visa sponsorship - Companies, big or small, need not worry about not hiring skillful employees, just because 'it is a looong and random process' - Not entirely based on higher salaries. Sure, a high salary is a pseudo metric to indicate high skill, but what about early stage startups? This eliminates that unfair advantage

nnd 8y ago
This already exists - the O-1 visa. EB1 is a green card type, you are confusing visas with residency permits here.
- Sreyanth 8y ago
  I don't think you can self-petition for an O-1 without job offer (at least that is what I remember). Just checked again, just to be sure [0]. I didn't suggest a new category in EBX, I said something similar for a visa where one can self-petition without a job offer, get the visa and work for whichever company she wants to work for, all without a need for an employer sponsorship. "self-petition without a job offer" being the key phrase. [0] https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/o-1-visa-individuals-extraordinary-ability-or-achievement https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...
  - nnd 8y ago
    Technically you need a registered company to "sponsor" you, but it can be your own company, where you are CEO and have 100% ownership. In the end, it's just a formality, the visa is granted on a personal basis. Compared to H1B where USCIS relies on a company to establish your credibility as a skilled worker, with O-1 they evaluate credibility themselves via multiple factors mostly involving peer validation (i.e. publications, articles, etc). So yes, technically you need a job offer for O-1, but it's just a formality. Personally, I agree that it doesn't make much rational sense either, but then again barely anything makes sense when it comes to (US) immigration laws.

nnd 8y ago

It appears that this change would only benefit holders of advanced degrees from US universities, and make the situation worse for highly skilled immigrants in general.

jefftk 8y ago

We should auction these spots off, so the companies which get the most economic value from bringing people in can do so. I like implementing this by ordering applications by salary, but you could also have some part go to the government.

yholio 8y ago

>Graham said he will recommend clients prepare their full cases as they normally would. That means hiring an immigration attorney, collecting the necessary documents I don't understand, why is this whole heavy bureaucracy necessary? The employer should pledge to pay an above average paycheck and the respective taxes, say 100K for 5 years, and the employee should commit to maintain employment to either his sponsor or any other employer willing to pay him at least say 75% of the original pledge, with a decent job seeking hiatus. This creates a nice market dinamic where only highly skilled people are brought in, because their skills make them valuable on the labour market guaranteing their future employment, without abusing their circumstances or depressing the wages of lower skilled nationals. In retrospect, this could never fly because it also affects professions with strong lobbies, like doctors. The lobbies in tech are one-sided to the employers interests, which of course need to sell a "tech labour crisis" before they are allowed to depress the wages of their own laborers. Cue in bureaucrats and bottom feeders.

loopycode 8y ago

Feels like modern day complicated depressing slavery

known 8y ago

Too little and too late since Indians mastered the art of corruption https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2016/09/22/india-is-the-fastest-growing-source-of-new-illegal-immigrants-to-the-u-s/ https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2016/09/22/india-is-the-... and http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-most-corrupt-while-doing-business-abroad.htm http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-...