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This comment post is going to be pure speculation. I think the numbers in this article are right. Over the past 75 years, relative poverty has grown at a drama

This comment post is going to be pure speculation. I think the numbers in this article are right. Over the past 75 years, relative poverty has grown at a dramatic pace. Sure, everyone's quality of life has improved across the board but relative poverty is the important metric. In the past 15 years more and more of a household income is tied up in basic needs; bills and rent/mortgages are consuming higher percentages of net income, outpacing inflation. More of the real purchasing power is going into the pockets of a few. Most people in the US economy are being squeezed and we seem to be approaching a point where there isn't much left to squeeze. Hypothetical: there exists a figure of relative poverty where many folk will stop playing the capitalist game and instead seek alternative ways of organizing an economy. I speculate that we're approaching that relative poverty figure and that can possibly explain why many people want to socialize wealth. For example, many people I know with $50,000+ in student debt want other people to pay for it. How many other debts would people want to have others pay for? How many recurring expenses would people want others to subsidize? I think the source of the problem seems to be lack of entrepreneurial activities compared to the past. With all the squeezing experienced there are some folks in the population that aren't taking a risk in starting a business that would otherwise. The amount of risk one has to take on is higher as well due to regulation and having to buy politicians. Increasing the amount of competition would be an ideal way of "redistributing" wealth.

isoskeles 8y ago
Are student loans a basic need?
- grecy 8y ago
  Many countries certainly consider higher education a basic right.... of course those countries don't have loans for education.
- jhayward 8y ago
  Education is a basic need. Inequality in access to education is an accelerator and maintainer of inequality.
  - isoskeles 8y ago
    Oh, I didn't know that fact. My mind has changed now. Going to a college to be taught by various professors is similar to food, water, and shelter. I'm convinced.
FakeComments 8y ago
> Sure, everyone's quality of life has improved across the board but relative poverty is the important metric. I completely disagree — the total standard of living is the only one that matters. If you’re better off than you used to be, you’ll keep buying into society and things will keep getting better. I think there’s four factors: 1. It’s hard to view your status in absolute instead of relative terms, because it requires historical context, so most people misuse relative poverty as a proxy for absolute poverty. 2. People have capitalized on that misperception to advance their political agendas, causing increased civil tensions. 3. There are many unaccounted for things in applied economic models, and their scale could easily call into question our broader choices — and people are routinely told to shut up and stop talking about it. (I usually quip that we have financial architecture, but not financial engineering.) 4. People are afraid that the spread in relative poverty will be used to extort wealth until they’re forced back into absolute poverty — which there are signs of happening. I agree with your conclusion, broadly. The fix to relative poverty is changing market dynamics so that small businesses are more viable while colossal ones are less so.
- jhayward 8y ago
  > extort wealth until they’re forced back into absolute poverty — which there are signs of happening. ~~It is hardly sufficient to simply say that this outrageous claim requires enormous proof. Please, show me the billionaires who have been forced in to poverty by social program. Please.~~ Edit: I was misreading the above in exactly the wrong direction, wealth-wise. There is indeed quite a bit of evidence that the economic system, as a whole, is evolving to extract every single dollar of wealth from the lower classes, primarily transferring it to the top class. Health care (especially end-of-life), education, and wage stagnation vs productivity gains are the prime examples.
  - FakeComments 8y ago
    I think I was unclear — I meant people who are relatively poor, but wealthier in absolute terms being extorted by the relatively extremely wealthy until they’re also poor in absolute terms.
skh 8y ago
What is interesting to me is that it is a Biblical principle to have jubilee years and in my experience some of the most ardent opponents of debt forgiveness are right wing Christians. The fact is that we all subsidize each other. Poor people in major cities tend to use public transportation more than others and thus their taxes subsidize road building. I don't have children and subsidize k-12 education for those that do. The broader question is what sort of society do we collectively want?
- ianmcgowan 8y ago
  Personally, I want a Star Trek or Culture type of society, not Blade Runner or Neuromancer. I don't get the collective fury that some undeserving person might, gasp, be getting something for free. A rising tide lifts all boats, so let's fund that fusion, AI and nanotech research and really get that tide moving up...
- humanrebar 8y ago
  > ...it is a Biblical principle to have jubilee years... That part of the Bible also establishes a government funded priesthood consisting of only men that routinely perform ritual animal sacrifice. Point being, the jubilee year stuff was specific instructions on how to govern a particular people in a particular place at a particular time in history. Now, I would consider guaranteed loan forgiveness after, say, seven years, but that would probably just reconfigure how loans are structured. I figure people would get smaller mortgages, having to buy smaller houses with larger down payments. I'm not sure that's better for the poor than what we have now. Maybe it would be? The adjustment would certainly strain the economy while the housing sector sorted itself out.
  - skh 8y ago
    I’m an atheist and don’t necessarily care much for Biblical principles. However, right wing Christians I know quote par6s of the Old Testament as evidence for some of their moral beliefs. They do tend to ignore those portions that contradict their preconceived ideas.
    - 8y ago
pessimizer 8y ago
> Sure, everyone's quality of life has improved across the board but relative poverty is the important metric. If you give the entire world credit for the advancements in China. I'd say instead that China is doing really well, and everyone else is doing about the same.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  China may have been the fastest-improving country in the past decades, but in that same timespan, new technologies improved quality of life everywhere. Relatively, not much has changed, but in absolute terms, things are better.

isoskeles 8y ago

Are student loans a basic need?

grecy 8y ago
Many countries certainly consider higher education a basic right.... of course those countries don't have loans for education.
jhayward 8y ago
Education is a basic need. Inequality in access to education is an accelerator and maintainer of inequality.
- isoskeles 8y ago
  Oh, I didn't know that fact. My mind has changed now. Going to a college to be taught by various professors is similar to food, water, and shelter. I'm convinced.

FakeComments 8y ago

> Sure, everyone's quality of life has improved across the board but relative poverty is the important metric. I completely disagree — the total standard of living is the only one that matters. If you’re better off than you used to be, you’ll keep buying into society and things will keep getting better. I think there’s four factors: 1. It’s hard to view your status in absolute instead of relative terms, because it requires historical context, so most people misuse relative poverty as a proxy for absolute poverty. 2. People have capitalized on that misperception to advance their political agendas, causing increased civil tensions. 3. There are many unaccounted for things in applied economic models, and their scale could easily call into question our broader choices — and people are routinely told to shut up and stop talking about it. (I usually quip that we have financial architecture, but not financial engineering.) 4. People are afraid that the spread in relative poverty will be used to extort wealth until they’re forced back into absolute poverty — which there are signs of happening. I agree with your conclusion, broadly. The fix to relative poverty is changing market dynamics so that small businesses are more viable while colossal ones are less so.

jhayward 8y ago
> extort wealth until they’re forced back into absolute poverty — which there are signs of happening. ~~It is hardly sufficient to simply say that this outrageous claim requires enormous proof. Please, show me the billionaires who have been forced in to poverty by social program. Please.~~ Edit: I was misreading the above in exactly the wrong direction, wealth-wise. There is indeed quite a bit of evidence that the economic system, as a whole, is evolving to extract every single dollar of wealth from the lower classes, primarily transferring it to the top class. Health care (especially end-of-life), education, and wage stagnation vs productivity gains are the prime examples.
- FakeComments 8y ago
  I think I was unclear — I meant people who are relatively poor, but wealthier in absolute terms being extorted by the relatively extremely wealthy until they’re also poor in absolute terms.

skh 8y ago

What is interesting to me is that it is a Biblical principle to have jubilee years and in my experience some of the most ardent opponents of debt forgiveness are right wing Christians. The fact is that we all subsidize each other. Poor people in major cities tend to use public transportation more than others and thus their taxes subsidize road building. I don't have children and subsidize k-12 education for those that do. The broader question is what sort of society do we collectively want?

ianmcgowan 8y ago
Personally, I want a Star Trek or Culture type of society, not Blade Runner or Neuromancer. I don't get the collective fury that some undeserving person might, gasp, be getting something for free. A rising tide lifts all boats, so let's fund that fusion, AI and nanotech research and really get that tide moving up...
humanrebar 8y ago
> ...it is a Biblical principle to have jubilee years... That part of the Bible also establishes a government funded priesthood consisting of only men that routinely perform ritual animal sacrifice. Point being, the jubilee year stuff was specific instructions on how to govern a particular people in a particular place at a particular time in history. Now, I would consider guaranteed loan forgiveness after, say, seven years, but that would probably just reconfigure how loans are structured. I figure people would get smaller mortgages, having to buy smaller houses with larger down payments. I'm not sure that's better for the poor than what we have now. Maybe it would be? The adjustment would certainly strain the economy while the housing sector sorted itself out.
- skh 8y ago
  I’m an atheist and don’t necessarily care much for Biblical principles. However, right wing Christians I know quote par6s of the Old Testament as evidence for some of their moral beliefs. They do tend to ignore those portions that contradict their preconceived ideas.
  - 8y ago

pessimizer 8y ago

> Sure, everyone's quality of life has improved across the board but relative poverty is the important metric. If you give the entire world credit for the advancements in China. I'd say instead that China is doing really well, and everyone else is doing about the same.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
China may have been the fastest-improving country in the past decades, but in that same timespan, new technologies improved quality of life everywhere. Relatively, not much has changed, but in absolute terms, things are better.