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The 800 calories they are eating doesn't seem terribly healthy: "patients were asked to follow either a ‘home-made’ milk- and fruit-juice-based diet (811 kcal/

The 800 calories they are eating doesn't seem terribly healthy: "patients were asked to follow either a ‘home-made’ milk- and fruit-juice-based diet (811 kcal/day, 64 g protein, 132 g carbohydrate, 6 g fat) with a multivitamin/mineral supplement (Forceval® [Alliance]), or a micronutrient-replete commercial LELD (832 kcal/day, 87 g protein, 120 g carbohydrate, 12 g fat). I imagine these people are probably staving... I'd rather go low-carb myself. This is the study, DiRECT: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4754868/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4754868/

throwaway5752 8y ago
Cool. What about renal load?
vertline3 8y ago
So I guess back in the day, milk and bananas were considered an ideal food combination,
- debacle 8y ago
  A bowl of milk with bananas and about 1/4 cup of sugar. My grandpa ate that right up until he died. Man never gained a pound.
  - vertline3 8y ago
    Yeah I think I had it backwards it was nutrients that mixed perfectly, I was editing my post as you wrote that about weight gain. I thought Norman Rockwell used it to try and join the war.
  - magic_beans 8y ago
    Nothing wrong with that kind of diet for people without a genetic predisposition for diabetes (or lactose intolerance) and who are otherwise eating moderately.
xd 8y ago
It's targeted at people with type 2 and are obese .. which is an ever increasing issue in the UK. The BBC don't like to rock the boat.
village-idiot 8y ago
Generally agreed, but with a caveat: diabetics are at risk of ketoacidosis on low carb diets. They would need to measure their blood ketones and moderate carbohydrate intake to keep their levels down below dangerous thresholds. Personally when I went low carb, I got blood (not urine) ketone levels up into the range that would kill a diabetic quickly, think in the 7.0 range. Even as someone well adapted I regularly hit the 3.0s when fasting. Obligatory: I am not a doctor.
- someone454 8y ago
  You dont get keto acidosis by eating low carb, that is misinformation.
  - traek 8y ago
    Source? From my read it looks like you absolutely can. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc052709 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc052709
    - joecool1029 8y ago
      That's a case study of a single patient. Main takeaway: >Benign dietary ketosis resulting from restricting carbohydrates could, theoretically, cause ketoacidosis in persons with a predisposition to the condition.
      - matt4077 8y ago
        That sounds very much like what they were saying. “Theoretically” is closer to “can” than it is to “cannot”.
        village-idiot 8y ago
        Also, I said that it’s a risk to be managed. People are acting like I said that it’s a certainty and that not eating sugar constantly as a diabetic will kill you instantly or something.
GordonS 8y ago
It's going to be extremely difficult to confirm to 800 calories consisting almost entirely of carbs - very few people are going to succeed with this.
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  Neither of those consist almost entirely of carbs.
  - vorpalhex 8y ago
    That is a ton of carbs and moderate protein. I'd expect to see <80g of carbs and more focus on lean meats and veggies.
  - GordonS 8y ago
    Gah, you're right, I read it on mobile and missed the protein value. Then it's not quite as bad as I thought, but fat is still much more filling than protein: fat > protein > carbs
cowpewter 8y ago
This diet sounds miserable. You'd be hungry all the time. I would also much rather eat low-carb (and I do, I am a T2 diabetic that eats a ketogenic diet). Which sounds more sustainable? Drinking 800 calories of milk and juice every day, or eating real food like steak and broccoli, or chicken with brussel sprouts, or bacon and eggs? I am losing weight and reducing my A1c eating about 1300 calories of real food each day, and it doesn't leave me hungry at all. Keto is a very sustainable way of eating (in that you can keep doing it without misery). This "diet" looks like hell.
- mattmanser 8y ago
  A recent analysis posted here claimed that low carb, high animal protein/fat was the unhealthiest diet long term, resulting in a 4 year drop in life expectancy, compared to a 1 year drop with a high carb diet. Low carb looks to be dangerous for your body long term if you have too much meat. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2... According to a recent documentary I saw on the BBC about this very diet, the point of the 800 diet is to lose weight asap and then introduce food back in gradually over 3 weeks (I think it was restoring one meal time a week, dinner, lunch, breakfast), in a controlled manner to teach you better food habits. The documentary was focused on 4 normal people who had health problems due to weight, they all were trying this diet to see if it would help. One of them had just developed type 2. Wouldn't be surprised if that programme paved the way for this (it was on in June). https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b53xqs https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b53xqs
  - cowpewter 8y ago
    I eat reasonable portions of meat, not excessively large ones. Most of your calories on a ketogenic diet come from fat, not protein, both dietary fat and fat your body burns off if you're also losing weight at the same time. I would also rather live 4 less years and be healthy til the end of my lifespan, than live 4 extra years post-foot-amputation and on dialysis because of complications from diabetes. My father was also a T2 diabetic, tried to follow the ADA recommended diet, but still wound up insulin-dependent and eventually on dialysis before his death. I do not plan to follow in his footsteps. I feel better on this way of eating than I have at any point in my life. My body has never metabolized carbs well. When I was younger, I was reactive-hypoglycemic, meaning that eating too many carbs would actually cause my body to over-respond with insulin, causing my blood sugar to plummet. I blacked out multiple times in high school from low blood sugar. Eating carbs (other than green veggies of course) is not for me.
prrls 8y ago
A lot of people here are suggesting, like you, that a low-carbs diet or ketos can help your body "heal" from T2D. I just don't see why starving yourself from carbs, which is like the basis of life for your cells, is going to help. From what I gleaned here and there, T2D is more linked to fat-heavy diet, which clutters blood vessels and keeps yours cells from absorbing the insulin your body produces, thus preventing them from "disgesting" the carbs you sending to them, resulting in diabetes. Reducing all the cholesterol in your diet will help your body "cleanse" gradually from these plaques on your blood vessels. I'm not doctor, nor a nutrionist, but this guy makes really good and sourced videos on these subjects: On Keto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzHLAqyO7PQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzHLAqyO7PQ On carbs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyOACAdvAsE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyOACAdvAsE I really recommend watching them. They're clearly oriented (duh), but still quite informative. I'm sorry, my reply is a bit rushed and not that polished, but I really wanted to reply to see if anyone has something to say about this interpretation of carbs and T2D. (And it's damn late right now where I live!)
- leroy_masochist 8y ago
  Those videos were painful to watch (what's up with his intonation, it sounds like he's introducing prizefighters) and the guy looks anorexic and anemic; not someone from whom I'd take nutritional advice.
- someone454 8y ago
  T2 is related to glucose ingestion(sugar, carbs) NOT fat. Glucose spikes your insulin, and the continued, extreme spiking of insulin is what causes T2.
- LocalPCGuy 8y ago
  Bodies can run on ketones (byproduct of breaking down fats) or glucose. I'm not sure where you got the information that T2 is related to fat heavy diet, that is not true at all. It can be related to bring fat, for to complications with obesity. It is related to glucose spikes, which causes insulin spikes, but the T2s body is insulin resistant and so sugar and insulin stay in the blood stream and can't be utilized. High sugar in the blood is the cause of most T2 chronic issues. Also of note, a recent study has found that ingestion of cholesterol does not correlate with how much is in your blood.
raverbashing 8y ago
I'm betting that diet was vetted by a qualified dietitian/nutrition specialist.
- GordonS 8y ago
  I've seen a qualified dietitian working for the NHS - she hadn't a clue about what kind of diet someone with blood sugar problems should eat. Unfortunately, this has been my (even more unfortunately) wide and varied experience of several NHS consultants across different specialisms - their knowledge hasn't been updated since they left medical school, and what they were taught at medical school was 20 years out of date when it was taught.
surge 8y ago
Hasn't every study prior said fasting (especially combined with low carb diet in between) is far better than low calorie, because your body makes different adjustments to lack of food rather than some food and you actually end up worse on a low calorie diet because your body isn't getting the full amount of nutrients and calories it wants/needs but doesn't make the adjustments it'll make for brief periods of lack of food.

throwaway5752 8y ago

Cool. What about renal load?

vertline3 8y ago

So I guess back in the day, milk and bananas were considered an ideal food combination,

debacle 8y ago
A bowl of milk with bananas and about 1/4 cup of sugar. My grandpa ate that right up until he died. Man never gained a pound.
- vertline3 8y ago
  Yeah I think I had it backwards it was nutrients that mixed perfectly, I was editing my post as you wrote that about weight gain. I thought Norman Rockwell used it to try and join the war.
- magic_beans 8y ago
  Nothing wrong with that kind of diet for people without a genetic predisposition for diabetes (or lactose intolerance) and who are otherwise eating moderately.

xd 8y ago

It's targeted at people with type 2 and are obese .. which is an ever increasing issue in the UK. The BBC don't like to rock the boat.

village-idiot 8y ago

Generally agreed, but with a caveat: diabetics are at risk of ketoacidosis on low carb diets. They would need to measure their blood ketones and moderate carbohydrate intake to keep their levels down below dangerous thresholds. Personally when I went low carb, I got blood (not urine) ketone levels up into the range that would kill a diabetic quickly, think in the 7.0 range. Even as someone well adapted I regularly hit the 3.0s when fasting. Obligatory: I am not a doctor.

someone454 8y ago
You dont get keto acidosis by eating low carb, that is misinformation.
- traek 8y ago
  Source? From my read it looks like you absolutely can. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc052709 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc052709
  - joecool1029 8y ago
    That's a case study of a single patient. Main takeaway: >Benign dietary ketosis resulting from restricting carbohydrates could, theoretically, cause ketoacidosis in persons with a predisposition to the condition.
    - matt4077 8y ago
      That sounds very much like what they were saying. “Theoretically” is closer to “can” than it is to “cannot”.
      - village-idiot 8y ago
        Also, I said that it’s a risk to be managed. People are acting like I said that it’s a certainty and that not eating sugar constantly as a diabetic will kill you instantly or something.

GordonS 8y ago

It's going to be extremely difficult to confirm to 800 calories consisting almost entirely of carbs - very few people are going to succeed with this.

ryanwaggoner 8y ago
Neither of those consist almost entirely of carbs.
- vorpalhex 8y ago
  That is a ton of carbs and moderate protein. I'd expect to see <80g of carbs and more focus on lean meats and veggies.
- GordonS 8y ago
  Gah, you're right, I read it on mobile and missed the protein value. Then it's not quite as bad as I thought, but fat is still much more filling than protein: fat > protein > carbs

cowpewter 8y ago

This diet sounds miserable. You'd be hungry all the time. I would also much rather eat low-carb (and I do, I am a T2 diabetic that eats a ketogenic diet). Which sounds more sustainable? Drinking 800 calories of milk and juice every day, or eating real food like steak and broccoli, or chicken with brussel sprouts, or bacon and eggs? I am losing weight and reducing my A1c eating about 1300 calories of real food each day, and it doesn't leave me hungry at all. Keto is a very sustainable way of eating (in that you can keep doing it without misery). This "diet" looks like hell.

mattmanser 8y ago
A recent analysis posted here claimed that low carb, high animal protein/fat was the unhealthiest diet long term, resulting in a 4 year drop in life expectancy, compared to a 1 year drop with a high carb diet. Low carb looks to be dangerous for your body long term if you have too much meat. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2... According to a recent documentary I saw on the BBC about this very diet, the point of the 800 diet is to lose weight asap and then introduce food back in gradually over 3 weeks (I think it was restoring one meal time a week, dinner, lunch, breakfast), in a controlled manner to teach you better food habits. The documentary was focused on 4 normal people who had health problems due to weight, they all were trying this diet to see if it would help. One of them had just developed type 2. Wouldn't be surprised if that programme paved the way for this (it was on in June). https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b53xqs https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b53xqs
- cowpewter 8y ago
  I eat reasonable portions of meat, not excessively large ones. Most of your calories on a ketogenic diet come from fat, not protein, both dietary fat and fat your body burns off if you're also losing weight at the same time. I would also rather live 4 less years and be healthy til the end of my lifespan, than live 4 extra years post-foot-amputation and on dialysis because of complications from diabetes. My father was also a T2 diabetic, tried to follow the ADA recommended diet, but still wound up insulin-dependent and eventually on dialysis before his death. I do not plan to follow in his footsteps. I feel better on this way of eating than I have at any point in my life. My body has never metabolized carbs well. When I was younger, I was reactive-hypoglycemic, meaning that eating too many carbs would actually cause my body to over-respond with insulin, causing my blood sugar to plummet. I blacked out multiple times in high school from low blood sugar. Eating carbs (other than green veggies of course) is not for me.

prrls 8y ago

A lot of people here are suggesting, like you, that a low-carbs diet or ketos can help your body "heal" from T2D. I just don't see why starving yourself from carbs, which is like the basis of life for your cells, is going to help. From what I gleaned here and there, T2D is more linked to fat-heavy diet, which clutters blood vessels and keeps yours cells from absorbing the insulin your body produces, thus preventing them from "disgesting" the carbs you sending to them, resulting in diabetes. Reducing all the cholesterol in your diet will help your body "cleanse" gradually from these plaques on your blood vessels. I'm not doctor, nor a nutrionist, but this guy makes really good and sourced videos on these subjects: On Keto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzHLAqyO7PQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzHLAqyO7PQ On carbs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyOACAdvAsE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyOACAdvAsE I really recommend watching them. They're clearly oriented (duh), but still quite informative. I'm sorry, my reply is a bit rushed and not that polished, but I really wanted to reply to see if anyone has something to say about this interpretation of carbs and T2D. (And it's damn late right now where I live!)

leroy_masochist 8y ago
Those videos were painful to watch (what's up with his intonation, it sounds like he's introducing prizefighters) and the guy looks anorexic and anemic; not someone from whom I'd take nutritional advice.
someone454 8y ago
T2 is related to glucose ingestion(sugar, carbs) NOT fat. Glucose spikes your insulin, and the continued, extreme spiking of insulin is what causes T2.
LocalPCGuy 8y ago
Bodies can run on ketones (byproduct of breaking down fats) or glucose. I'm not sure where you got the information that T2 is related to fat heavy diet, that is not true at all. It can be related to bring fat, for to complications with obesity. It is related to glucose spikes, which causes insulin spikes, but the T2s body is insulin resistant and so sugar and insulin stay in the blood stream and can't be utilized. High sugar in the blood is the cause of most T2 chronic issues. Also of note, a recent study has found that ingestion of cholesterol does not correlate with how much is in your blood.

raverbashing 8y ago

I'm betting that diet was vetted by a qualified dietitian/nutrition specialist.

GordonS 8y ago
I've seen a qualified dietitian working for the NHS - she hadn't a clue about what kind of diet someone with blood sugar problems should eat. Unfortunately, this has been my (even more unfortunately) wide and varied experience of several NHS consultants across different specialisms - their knowledge hasn't been updated since they left medical school, and what they were taught at medical school was 20 years out of date when it was taught.

surge 8y ago

Hasn't every study prior said fasting (especially combined with low carb diet in between) is far better than low calorie, because your body makes different adjustments to lack of food rather than some food and you actually end up worse on a low calorie diet because your body isn't getting the full amount of nutrients and calories it wants/needs but doesn't make the adjustments it'll make for brief periods of lack of food.