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The developer edition allows you to use unsigned addons, that has security updates. You can't live in the modern world and expect all choices to be handed down

by zaarn 8y ago

The developer edition allows you to use unsigned addons, that has security updates. You can't live in the modern world and expect all choices to be handed down without consequences and tradeoffs.

SilasX 8y ago
Right, we can't. Unless we're promising to give users control over their machines and there are trivial ways to accommodate this means of giving them control.
- zaarn 8y ago
  Users will abuse the ability to control their own machines. Given full administrative privilege on their machine, it takes, by my experience, about a month until the machine either has various pieces of malware installed or their malware has malware installed. The average user cannot be trusted with full control of their machine and it's fairly reasonable to say that power users need to take the extra steps to, for example, install a power user edition of firefox.
  - SilasX 8y ago
    I'm not asking for full administrative privilege. I'm asking for: "If the user goes into a deep part of the obscure developer options and bypasses the warnings about unsigned addons, and then uses a non-obvious but documented process for side-loading, something virus peddlers can't really walk users through, then Firefox should honor that while explicitly displaying the list of unsigned addons the users added." >I'm not dismissing people who aren't as capable as me either, I've mentioned alternative approaches and I'm getting tired of having to repeat "there is the dev and nightly edition" to the same 5 people over and over again. And I and others have explained how those involve unacceptable tradeoffs and run directly contrary to "give users back control over their machines" ethos, though not, of course, to your extremely limited version of the ethos.
    - zaarn 8y ago
      >"If the user goes into a deep part of the obscure developer options and bypasses the warnings about unsigned addons, and then uses a non-obvious but documented process for side-loading, something virus peddlers can't really walk users through, then Firefox should honor that while explicitly displaying the list of unsigned addons the users added." Any such process would have to be difficult for external programs. As it stands, the best way to get verification of such a setting is through the built in binary verification that firefox does, which require that any application needs to reverse engineer and patch the binary to install it's own addons. Your process requires editing the about:config values, which is possible for an external application and installing an addon, which copies it into a specific folder and is also possible for an external application. We know this is possible because this is what other applications did to install their shitty toolbars. >And I and others have explained how those involve unacceptable tradeoffs and run directly contrary to "give users back control over their machines" ethos, though not, of course, to your extremely limited version of the ethos. It seems to me that further discussion is unnecessary considering you continue to ignore significant portions of my comments.
      - Insequent 8y ago
        >Any such process would have to be difficult for external programs. Why? If the user already has a malicious 'external application' running on their system with sufficient privileges to do any of this, then they're already screwed, and they have bigger problems to worry about than malicious WebExtensions. More generally, I don't think we should hold applications responsible for the security or behaviour of parts of the software/hardware stack at equal or higher privilege level to them, including other applications. Mostly because, well, they can't do anything truly effective in that regard. I see you're worried about average users unknowingly installing random malicious crap, and I've seen a lot of that myself. I think the way forward is pretty much what is being done on mobile platforms currently: universally applied application sandboxing, usage of existing fine-grained access control models (and also the development of ones that are saner to use), and better communication to the user about what their applications are doing and what the permissions they are requesting actually mean. Yes, it's still a clusterfuck, but it's an improvement. A security model involving applications in an arms-war with one another, using increasingly byzantine restictions in an attempt to prevent external manipulation, feels less like something I would want any part of, and more like something out of a dystopian sci-fi novel. : Although I think Google went too far on the "lock things down completely" side of things when they made it outright impossible to, say, use rsync to backup or sync the entire contents of a phone's sd card to/from the network
the8472 8y ago
They could add a way to add signing keys to the stables. This gives you security updates and user freedom without significant downsides because the user would still be in charge of signing.
- zaarn 8y ago
  That would allow any third party software running on your computer to add malicious plugins to the browser (which has happened in the past and is in part why it requires Moz' signature now). Most users, ie, the average user plus a significant amount, don't really care that they can't install random addons from outside the addon store.
  - zeveb 8y ago
    What would prevent malicious software running on the computer from installing a malicious version of Mozilla? What's their attack model?
    - zaarn 8y ago
      The attack model is largely that fairly normal software wants to install adware on the computer. The software isn't direct malware but will attempt to install and activate addons, redirect the users homepage and search engine as well as setting various other options on the user behalf that are ultimatively harmful to the user experience in Firefox. Mozilla wants their branded Firefox to be something the user can trust and that means controlling what code with elevated privileges (ie, Addons) can run in the browser. edit: It should be mentioned that in response to the first question; Firefox performs some binary verification and won't run or attempt to repair if it detects tampering.
      - the8472 8y ago
        This threat model appears to optimized for the argument giving control to mozilla. It assumes that your system is essentially compromised but the attacker has just exactly so many self-imposed restraints that they can be thwarted just as long as things are under mozilla's control. But if you give the user control then suddenly the balance tips and their already-compromised system will be used for bad things. It's a really long-winded way of saying "we know better, you cannot be trusted, freedom is slavery". The correct solution is to remove malware, not to play games with it that require freedom-reducing gambits.

by zaarn 8y ago

The developer edition allows you to use unsigned addons, that has security updates. You can't live in the modern world and expect all choices to be handed down without consequences and tradeoffs.

SilasX 8y ago

Right, we can't. Unless we're promising to give users control over their machines and there are trivial ways to accommodate this means of giving them control.

zaarn 8y ago
Users will abuse the ability to control their own machines. Given full administrative privilege on their machine, it takes, by my experience, about a month until the machine either has various pieces of malware installed or their malware has malware installed. The average user cannot be trusted with full control of their machine and it's fairly reasonable to say that power users need to take the extra steps to, for example, install a power user edition of firefox.
- SilasX 8y ago
  I'm not asking for full administrative privilege. I'm asking for: "If the user goes into a deep part of the obscure developer options and bypasses the warnings about unsigned addons, and then uses a non-obvious but documented process for side-loading, something virus peddlers can't really walk users through, then Firefox should honor that while explicitly displaying the list of unsigned addons the users added." >I'm not dismissing people who aren't as capable as me either, I've mentioned alternative approaches and I'm getting tired of having to repeat "there is the dev and nightly edition" to the same 5 people over and over again. And I and others have explained how those involve unacceptable tradeoffs and run directly contrary to "give users back control over their machines" ethos, though not, of course, to your extremely limited version of the ethos.
  - zaarn 8y ago
    >"If the user goes into a deep part of the obscure developer options and bypasses the warnings about unsigned addons, and then uses a non-obvious but documented process for side-loading, something virus peddlers can't really walk users through, then Firefox should honor that while explicitly displaying the list of unsigned addons the users added." Any such process would have to be difficult for external programs. As it stands, the best way to get verification of such a setting is through the built in binary verification that firefox does, which require that any application needs to reverse engineer and patch the binary to install it's own addons. Your process requires editing the about:config values, which is possible for an external application and installing an addon, which copies it into a specific folder and is also possible for an external application. We know this is possible because this is what other applications did to install their shitty toolbars. >And I and others have explained how those involve unacceptable tradeoffs and run directly contrary to "give users back control over their machines" ethos, though not, of course, to your extremely limited version of the ethos. It seems to me that further discussion is unnecessary considering you continue to ignore significant portions of my comments.
    - Insequent 8y ago
      >Any such process would have to be difficult for external programs. Why? If the user already has a malicious 'external application' running on their system with sufficient privileges to do any of this, then they're already screwed, and they have bigger problems to worry about than malicious WebExtensions. More generally, I don't think we should hold applications responsible for the security or behaviour of parts of the software/hardware stack at equal or higher privilege level to them, including other applications. Mostly because, well, they can't do anything truly effective in that regard. I see you're worried about average users unknowingly installing random malicious crap, and I've seen a lot of that myself. I think the way forward is pretty much what is being done on mobile platforms currently: universally applied application sandboxing, usage of existing fine-grained access control models (and also the development of ones that are saner to use), and better communication to the user about what their applications are doing and what the permissions they are requesting actually mean. Yes, it's still a clusterfuck, but it's an improvement. A security model involving applications in an arms-war with one another, using increasingly byzantine restictions in an attempt to prevent external manipulation, feels less like something I would want any part of, and more like something out of a dystopian sci-fi novel. : Although I think Google went too far on the "lock things down completely" side of things when they made it outright impossible to, say, use rsync to backup or sync the entire contents of a phone's sd card to/from the network

the8472 8y ago

They could add a way to add signing keys to the stables. This gives you security updates and user freedom without significant downsides because the user would still be in charge of signing.

zaarn 8y ago
That would allow any third party software running on your computer to add malicious plugins to the browser (which has happened in the past and is in part why it requires Moz' signature now). Most users, ie, the average user plus a significant amount, don't really care that they can't install random addons from outside the addon store.
- zeveb 8y ago
  What would prevent malicious software running on the computer from installing a malicious version of Mozilla? What's their attack model?
  - zaarn 8y ago
    The attack model is largely that fairly normal software wants to install adware on the computer. The software isn't direct malware but will attempt to install and activate addons, redirect the users homepage and search engine as well as setting various other options on the user behalf that are ultimatively harmful to the user experience in Firefox. Mozilla wants their branded Firefox to be something the user can trust and that means controlling what code with elevated privileges (ie, Addons) can run in the browser. edit: It should be mentioned that in response to the first question; Firefox performs some binary verification and won't run or attempt to repair if it detects tampering.
    - the8472 8y ago
      This threat model appears to optimized for the argument giving control to mozilla. It assumes that your system is essentially compromised but the attacker has just exactly so many self-imposed restraints that they can be thwarted just as long as things are under mozilla's control. But if you give the user control then suddenly the balance tips and their already-compromised system will be used for bad things. It's a really long-winded way of saying "we know better, you cannot be trusted, freedom is slavery". The correct solution is to remove malware, not to play games with it that require freedom-reducing gambits.