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I am surprised there is a problem with CS grads not finding jobs. Granted, I am in VT, but we can't fill programmer positions for anything here; though, I woul

by eof 16y ago

I am surprised there is a problem with CS grads not finding jobs. Granted, I am in VT, but we can't fill programmer positions for anything here; though, I wouldn't hire a Java-only recent CS grad unless s/he could find a way to really show they were fantastic problem solvers. (as we don't do Java or much OO in general)

joshfinnie 16y ago
I was under the impression that VT as a whole was having a very hard time filling jobs... I just can't see myself moving to Burlington and having to survive those winters (though I bet you get a lot of coding done when it is -100* outside). I have a hard enough time with Connecticut winters.
- eof 16y ago
  You know, I can't really speak to that. I know it's not a good place to try and make a good living as there just aren't many opportunities out here to make >45k a year.. most everything is entry level, retail, or hospitality around here. So I guess I was surprised when we are offering a very good job for the area that we got so little interest, but it makes sense in that most qualified people are just leaving before they become qualified. I imagine dealer.com is nabbing good local hackers faster than we can find them
  - expeditious 16y ago
    With the job market the way it is, you might consider advertising in more populated areas (like MA and CT) targetting people who might relocate for the right position.
    - eof 16y ago
      We have done that to some degree, but only highly targeted ads (communities specific to our CMS)
djb_hackernews 16y ago
I don't really get this line of thinking on hiring CS grads. Most CS programs don't teach Java, they might use it to teach some computing principle or how to solve problems but I'd imagine you'd be hard pressed to find a grad who is loyal to Java just because of their CS courses.
- sukuriant 16y ago
  I'm loyal to Java (read: will choose this language over others in the general case because of my experience in it) because it's the language I, by far, have the most experience in. When I was ready for AP Computer Science, the AP test was in Java. From there, half of my classes in computer science were in Java. C was the other frequent language. With that much immersion, when I started doing things on my own, I would naturally move toward Java because I was rather good at using its API, and writing in it flows most naturally to me.
- eof 16y ago
  I am under the impression that most CS grads get more experience in Java than anything else? It was C++ for me, but that was almost ten years ago now.
  - djb_hackernews 16y ago
    Maybe, but why does that count against them? They have a degree in CS, no curiculum worth its salt produces CS grads that are also software developers ready to hit the groud running. If you've got a a CS grad, then you have someone who understands and can apply computing principles. If your technology is too difficult to get them up to speed in a month or two, I'd look at your choice of technology.
pavel_lishin 16y ago
Maybe it's different in the UK, but a huge percentage of my graduating classmates couldn't write code to save their life. There are people who are bad at their job in most fields, but maybe CS is just easier to bullshit through.
- charlesdm 16y ago
  It's the same here in Belgium. I'm a dropout but some of my friends are currently getting their CS degree and the majority of them couldn't write code, even if their life depended on it. They see it more as a job then something they like doing. When I was still attending school I also noticed that the majority of the people really didn't care; it was just a small percentage of the group that loved CS & programming. But I guess that is something you see everywhere in life.
  - pavel_lishin 16y ago
    > They see it more as a job then something they like doing. I still don't see why this is a bad thing. A plumber who didn't grow up dreaming of pipe repair can still fix things. You don't have to love a job to at least be minimally competent at it. Just because they don't love their jobs is no excuse to be unable to do it. But I guess they're unemployed, so the problem fixes itself :)
    - eof 16y ago
      No, I think it's different. Programming is so much harder than plumbing from an intellectual standpoint that there is a strong correlation between people who enjoy programming (and thus do it in their free time, and strive to excel at it) and people who are competent programmers. You could probably spend two weeks with a good plumber, having never picked up a wrench in your life, and with the right tools be able to do 98% of the work a plumber ever needs to do. Take someone who has never used a computer and put them next to the greatest programmer and teacher ever, and that person will probably be able to do ~2% of the work a typical programmer will ever need to do. Since the intellectual barrier to entry is so high, hobbyists are likely the only ones to do it well, as it just takes so much of the brain power of someone to be able to be a good programmer. So someone who isn't using all of that brain power, or a significant portion of it, thinking about coding is simply just not going to be able to compete with someone who is. Compare that to a plumber and I think your analogy falls a part.
enjo 16y ago
It's much the same situation here in Colorado. It seems like the applicant pool is even smaller than it's been. The number of qualified engineers is really mind-boggling, and competition is pretty fierce.
- sukuriant 16y ago
  As a master's computer science student graduating in December, I'm curious as to what jobs are available in Colorado. Most of the jobs I've seen (and many I'm not interested in/don't beleive myself qualified for) are in Silicon Valley. [edit: Just checking StackOverflow Careers shows many Colorado jobs that I hadn't seen before, some of them having been added in the last hour]
moxiemk1 16y ago
Where are the good CS jobs in VT? I'm from the NEK and in college now, but I had resigned myself to not being able to afford living in VT for a long time (got some serious college loan debt coming up) I had an NYC internship this past summer that was awesome, but if there are good jobs in VT, I would be very interested.
- eof 16y ago
  There are a few web shops around Burlington.. I know Tag New Media is doing really hot and probably looking for good help. Dealer.com is huge and growing. Other than that, it's really just programmer/sysadmin/tech-everything positions for smaller, non-tech businesses.. which aren't exactly 'good CS jobs'. There are usually 1-3 jobs in the Seven Days for developers, most in the 45-60k area with a few I would guess in the 60-85k range.
tocomment 16y ago
I think anyone in an unusual location having trouble hiring should definitely reconsider hiring remote (or at least partially remote workers.) I put up a job ad and forgot to specify the location so everyone figured it was remote. I got 20+ highly qualified people applying every day. I noticed the mistake and fixed it to say local only and I haven't gotten an application since. If I were in charge of hiring I'd definitely find a good remote person.

by eof 16y ago

joshfinnie 16y ago

I was under the impression that VT as a whole was having a very hard time filling jobs... I just can't see myself moving to Burlington and having to survive those winters (though I bet you get a lot of coding done when it is -100* outside). I have a hard enough time with Connecticut winters.

eof 16y ago
You know, I can't really speak to that. I know it's not a good place to try and make a good living as there just aren't many opportunities out here to make >45k a year.. most everything is entry level, retail, or hospitality around here. So I guess I was surprised when we are offering a very good job for the area that we got so little interest, but it makes sense in that most qualified people are just leaving before they become qualified. I imagine dealer.com is nabbing good local hackers faster than we can find them
- expeditious 16y ago
  With the job market the way it is, you might consider advertising in more populated areas (like MA and CT) targetting people who might relocate for the right position.
  - eof 16y ago
    We have done that to some degree, but only highly targeted ads (communities specific to our CMS)

djb_hackernews 16y ago

I don't really get this line of thinking on hiring CS grads. Most CS programs don't teach Java, they might use it to teach some computing principle or how to solve problems but I'd imagine you'd be hard pressed to find a grad who is loyal to Java just because of their CS courses.

sukuriant 16y ago
I'm loyal to Java (read: will choose this language over others in the general case because of my experience in it) because it's the language I, by far, have the most experience in. When I was ready for AP Computer Science, the AP test was in Java. From there, half of my classes in computer science were in Java. C was the other frequent language. With that much immersion, when I started doing things on my own, I would naturally move toward Java because I was rather good at using its API, and writing in it flows most naturally to me.
eof 16y ago
I am under the impression that most CS grads get more experience in Java than anything else? It was C++ for me, but that was almost ten years ago now.
- djb_hackernews 16y ago
  Maybe, but why does that count against them? They have a degree in CS, no curiculum worth its salt produces CS grads that are also software developers ready to hit the groud running. If you've got a a CS grad, then you have someone who understands and can apply computing principles. If your technology is too difficult to get them up to speed in a month or two, I'd look at your choice of technology.

pavel_lishin 16y ago

Maybe it's different in the UK, but a huge percentage of my graduating classmates couldn't write code to save their life. There are people who are bad at their job in most fields, but maybe CS is just easier to bullshit through.

charlesdm 16y ago
It's the same here in Belgium. I'm a dropout but some of my friends are currently getting their CS degree and the majority of them couldn't write code, even if their life depended on it. They see it more as a job then something they like doing. When I was still attending school I also noticed that the majority of the people really didn't care; it was just a small percentage of the group that loved CS & programming. But I guess that is something you see everywhere in life.
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  > They see it more as a job then something they like doing. I still don't see why this is a bad thing. A plumber who didn't grow up dreaming of pipe repair can still fix things. You don't have to love a job to at least be minimally competent at it. Just because they don't love their jobs is no excuse to be unable to do it. But I guess they're unemployed, so the problem fixes itself :)
  - eof 16y ago
    No, I think it's different. Programming is so much harder than plumbing from an intellectual standpoint that there is a strong correlation between people who enjoy programming (and thus do it in their free time, and strive to excel at it) and people who are competent programmers. You could probably spend two weeks with a good plumber, having never picked up a wrench in your life, and with the right tools be able to do 98% of the work a plumber ever needs to do. Take someone who has never used a computer and put them next to the greatest programmer and teacher ever, and that person will probably be able to do ~2% of the work a typical programmer will ever need to do. Since the intellectual barrier to entry is so high, hobbyists are likely the only ones to do it well, as it just takes so much of the brain power of someone to be able to be a good programmer. So someone who isn't using all of that brain power, or a significant portion of it, thinking about coding is simply just not going to be able to compete with someone who is. Compare that to a plumber and I think your analogy falls a part.

enjo 16y ago

It's much the same situation here in Colorado. It seems like the applicant pool is even smaller than it's been. The number of qualified engineers is really mind-boggling, and competition is pretty fierce.

sukuriant 16y ago
As a master's computer science student graduating in December, I'm curious as to what jobs are available in Colorado. Most of the jobs I've seen (and many I'm not interested in/don't beleive myself qualified for) are in Silicon Valley. [edit: Just checking StackOverflow Careers shows many Colorado jobs that I hadn't seen before, some of them having been added in the last hour]

moxiemk1 16y ago

Where are the good CS jobs in VT? I'm from the NEK and in college now, but I had resigned myself to not being able to afford living in VT for a long time (got some serious college loan debt coming up) I had an NYC internship this past summer that was awesome, but if there are good jobs in VT, I would be very interested.

eof 16y ago
There are a few web shops around Burlington.. I know Tag New Media is doing really hot and probably looking for good help. Dealer.com is huge and growing. Other than that, it's really just programmer/sysadmin/tech-everything positions for smaller, non-tech businesses.. which aren't exactly 'good CS jobs'. There are usually 1-3 jobs in the Seven Days for developers, most in the 45-60k area with a few I would guess in the 60-85k range.

tocomment 16y ago

I think anyone in an unusual location having trouble hiring should definitely reconsider hiring remote (or at least partially remote workers.) I put up a job ad and forgot to specify the location so everyone figured it was remote. I got 20+ highly qualified people applying every day. I noticed the mistake and fixed it to say local only and I haven't gotten an application since. If I were in charge of hiring I'd definitely find a good remote person.