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I think Apple's not going to "win" the battle with Flash. They're simply going to drive a portion of their customers to Android in the interim due to fighting i

I think Apple's not going to "win" the battle with Flash. They're simply going to drive a portion of their customers to Android in the interim due to fighting it. Like many actual wars, everyone involved will lose. When I use my iPad, the #1 reason I put it down and pick up my laptop is that I want to watch a video (quite frequently one I found here in fact) or play a game that I can't. It's to the point where I now just dig out the laptop if I want to read Hacker News as a result. I made the mistake of taking the iPad on a trip without my laptop, only to find I couldn't view the website of any good restaurant. (Granted there's no reason those websites should be one giant SWF, but they are.) You don't realize how much Flash stuff is on the web until you use an iPad.

moxiemk1 16y ago
Counter-anecdote: you don't know how much on the web isn't flash until you pick up an iPad. We must use very different subsets of the Internet, because the videos I run into (on random, lower profile sites, no less) don't require flash. Honestly, the thing that drives me from my iPad to pick up a laptop (which doesn't happen very often) is iPad-specific websites that don't let me opt-out and use their normal website. This has (unfortunately) been happening more and more lately.
- mattmaroon 16y ago
  We appear to use at least some of the same subsets since we're both here. Just last week there were two videos on the front page the one time I looked that wouldn't play. This happens in my Google Reader on a daily basis as well. As a Facebook Game developer I probably see more Flash than normal people, though the number of people who play Flash games on Facebook alone numbers in the hundreds of millions.
  - smackfu 16y ago
    Facebook games are also really bad in my experience at just not working on the iPad. No error message, no suggestion to try their standalone app, no nothing.
tjogin 16y ago
Well, in the past six months, the amount of video available in non-flash, "html5" format on the internet has increased from 25% to 50%, something like that. In another six months, what do you think that figure is going to be? Flash is headed towards marginalization, that's what my crystal ball says. Besides, what capable mobile flash runtime were they supposed to put in the iPad anyways? It's not like they had a choice.
- mattmaroon 16y ago
  The one in Froyo works just fine to play most flash videos and games.
  - ptomato 16y ago
    And didn't exist at the time the iPad came out.
    - tjogin 16y ago
      Exactly, and certainly didn't exist at the time Apple were forming their iPad strategy.
    - mattmaroon 16y ago
      It certainly would have if Apple had let Adobe do it. Adobe's been wanting to put Flash on the iPhone since before anyone actually had an Android unit.
      - tjogin 16y ago
        First of all, what is said privately between Apple and Adobe we don't know. Second, if Adobe wanted to create a flash runtime that runs on iOS as proof of concept, demo, or whatever, Apple couldn't stop them even if they wanted to. Third, Steve Jobs said that they'd love to see Adobe demo a capable mobile flash runtime, they just haven't.
      - chc 16y ago
        Adobe has a track record of putting out terrible Flash plugins for Apple platforms and was way behind schedule on mobile. It's hard to blame Apple for not wanting to play guinea pig.
neilc 16y ago
I think Flash-on-iOS is a great example of something that geeks love to discuss, but doesn't matter in the least to normal folks. Every non-technical person I know wants an iPad; 75% of them probably don't even know what Flash is.
- smackfu 16y ago
  Put those two facts together and they don't even know that a bunch of their favorite websites won't even work.
  - glhaynes 16y ago
    The iPad is selling in huge numbers and people seem to be really happy with them. So I think most people are either finding an app to replace Flash sites they can't view or just doing without that particular site on that device. I'd expected there to be more "backlash" or at least disappointment with the iPad when people ended up realizing that some sites they may want don't work. I've been surprised to hear nearly none of that. Maybe it's just a matter of it being such a different device that people accept that not all the things from the device they're used to (a traditional computer) work on it?
    - smackfu 16y ago
      If you weren't technical, wouldn't you be surprised that none of your Facebook games work on your expensive new toy? I think the people who buy an iPad and return it just don't post on web forums.
      - glhaynes 16y ago
        I agree, it's an unfortunate thing for the user experience. I don't think there's an epidemic of iPad returns, though, by any means.

moxiemk1 16y ago

Counter-anecdote: you don't know how much on the web isn't flash until you pick up an iPad. We must use very different subsets of the Internet, because the videos I run into (on random, lower profile sites, no less) don't require flash. Honestly, the thing that drives me from my iPad to pick up a laptop (which doesn't happen very often) is iPad-specific websites that don't let me opt-out and use their normal website. This has (unfortunately) been happening more and more lately.

mattmaroon 16y ago
We appear to use at least some of the same subsets since we're both here. Just last week there were two videos on the front page the one time I looked that wouldn't play. This happens in my Google Reader on a daily basis as well. As a Facebook Game developer I probably see more Flash than normal people, though the number of people who play Flash games on Facebook alone numbers in the hundreds of millions.
- smackfu 16y ago
  Facebook games are also really bad in my experience at just not working on the iPad. No error message, no suggestion to try their standalone app, no nothing.

tjogin 16y ago

Well, in the past six months, the amount of video available in non-flash, "html5" format on the internet has increased from 25% to 50%, something like that. In another six months, what do you think that figure is going to be? Flash is headed towards marginalization, that's what my crystal ball says. Besides, what capable mobile flash runtime were they supposed to put in the iPad anyways? It's not like they had a choice.

mattmaroon 16y ago
The one in Froyo works just fine to play most flash videos and games.
- ptomato 16y ago
  And didn't exist at the time the iPad came out.
  - tjogin 16y ago
    Exactly, and certainly didn't exist at the time Apple were forming their iPad strategy.
  - mattmaroon 16y ago
    It certainly would have if Apple had let Adobe do it. Adobe's been wanting to put Flash on the iPhone since before anyone actually had an Android unit.
    - tjogin 16y ago
      First of all, what is said privately between Apple and Adobe we don't know. Second, if Adobe wanted to create a flash runtime that runs on iOS as proof of concept, demo, or whatever, Apple couldn't stop them even if they wanted to. Third, Steve Jobs said that they'd love to see Adobe demo a capable mobile flash runtime, they just haven't.
    - chc 16y ago
      Adobe has a track record of putting out terrible Flash plugins for Apple platforms and was way behind schedule on mobile. It's hard to blame Apple for not wanting to play guinea pig.

neilc 16y ago

I think Flash-on-iOS is a great example of something that geeks love to discuss, but doesn't matter in the least to normal folks. Every non-technical person I know wants an iPad; 75% of them probably don't even know what Flash is.

smackfu 16y ago
Put those two facts together and they don't even know that a bunch of their favorite websites won't even work.
- glhaynes 16y ago
  The iPad is selling in huge numbers and people seem to be really happy with them. So I think most people are either finding an app to replace Flash sites they can't view or just doing without that particular site on that device. I'd expected there to be more "backlash" or at least disappointment with the iPad when people ended up realizing that some sites they may want don't work. I've been surprised to hear nearly none of that. Maybe it's just a matter of it being such a different device that people accept that not all the things from the device they're used to (a traditional computer) work on it?
  - smackfu 16y ago
    If you weren't technical, wouldn't you be surprised that none of your Facebook games work on your expensive new toy? I think the people who buy an iPad and return it just don't post on web forums.
    - glhaynes 16y ago
      I agree, it's an unfortunate thing for the user experience. I don't think there's an epidemic of iPad returns, though, by any means.