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It seems kind of silly to argue that the democratic politics is legitimate and violence is not, when the whole point of the democratic state is to create a mono

It seems kind of silly to argue that the democratic politics is legitimate and violence is not, when the whole point of the democratic state is to create a monopoly on violence. What fiction fails to teach you is that being good at violence is a lot of work! To be good at it you need to take krav or bjj or mma classes at least 3 times a week and go to the gun range at least once a week. I personally think society would gain vast benefits from making dueling legal again. Sadly the lawyers would never allow it because they would lose half their business!

devoply 8y ago
Poe's law. Fact is a lot of the political propaganda in the media (including movies) is used by the State to manufacture consent to use violence... usually as State intervention to liberate people and to recruit soldiers to protect freedom and train them so that they become good at violence. For instance see this, https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/9ztk4l/cant_wait_for_the_beta/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/9ztk4l/can... Regardless the political imagination of individuals as to what is right or wrong has very little impact on their ability to actually do much and hurt many people as individuals or even as political fringe groups, as the control mechanisms and technology to disrupt such individuals and groups is highly effective. However, when those groups become large movements perhaps they could possibly lead to some sort of uncontrollable and undesirable violence. Does that mean we should be weary of fiction writers promoting such themes, yes we should, if we're a country like China. It seems there is a movement to control all forms of speech these days as it's all starting to be considered dangerous... so you don't even have fiction as a refuge to express your revolution.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  > However, when those group become large movements they perhaps they could possibly lead to some sort of uncontrollable and undesirable violence. There is a lot of news about the US police doing exactly that, and not just violence per se, also things like NSA...
TomMarius 8y ago
I've seen development of a defense field similar to the one they had in Dune. Maybe soon.
barrow-rider 8y ago
> when the whole point of the democratic state is to create a monopoly on violence. The definition of a state, democratic or otherwise, is the monopoly of violence. Doesn't matter if it's absolutist monarchy, Scandinavian-style Social Democracy, or Al-Shabab-style Somali tribal rule -- if you have the ability to compel action then you can create a state. ISIS was issuing passports, IDs, and currency, for example. You don't have to play by their rules... but then again they don't have to keep .45 rounds from going into the back of your head. Monopoly of Force is entirely separate from issues of authority or legitimacy; everyone can hate your illegitimate rule but if they can't do shit about it then you still win. You hate the Tsar for having too much authority, but he's got secret police and an army so you stfu and keep your head down. Meanwhile, US citizens hate Trump but concede he won a legitimate election and, in spite of having like 40% of the world's guns, don't revolt in the street. > What fiction fails to teach you is that being good at violence is a lot of work! To be good at it you need to take krav or bjj or mma classes at least 3 times a week and go to the gun range at least once a week. I disagree with all of those minimums. Even in the Marines I didn't go to the range once a week, and I was a 'POG' supporting an infantry unit. We only PT'd 3 times a week, though some of us did more. > I personally think society would gain vast benefits from making dueling legal again. Sadly the lawyers would never allow it because they would lose half their business! History would disagree, and dueling was plainly outlawed for a reason. The appeal-ad-lawyeram is also not an argument; there were plenty of rich lawyers when dueling was a thing (several US Founding Fathers come to mind), and the legal business is currently incredibly competitive in terms of jobs right now -- without dueling.

devoply 8y ago

Poe's law. Fact is a lot of the political propaganda in the media (including movies) is used by the State to manufacture consent to use violence... usually as State intervention to liberate people and to recruit soldiers to protect freedom and train them so that they become good at violence. For instance see this, https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/9ztk4l/cant_wait_for_the_beta/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/9ztk4l/can... Regardless the political imagination of individuals as to what is right or wrong has very little impact on their ability to actually do much and hurt many people as individuals or even as political fringe groups, as the control mechanisms and technology to disrupt such individuals and groups is highly effective. However, when those groups become large movements perhaps they could possibly lead to some sort of uncontrollable and undesirable violence. Does that mean we should be weary of fiction writers promoting such themes, yes we should, if we're a country like China. It seems there is a movement to control all forms of speech these days as it's all starting to be considered dangerous... so you don't even have fiction as a refuge to express your revolution.

TomMarius 8y ago
> However, when those group become large movements they perhaps they could possibly lead to some sort of uncontrollable and undesirable violence. There is a lot of news about the US police doing exactly that, and not just violence per se, also things like NSA...

TomMarius 8y ago

I've seen development of a defense field similar to the one they had in Dune. Maybe soon.

barrow-rider 8y ago

> when the whole point of the democratic state is to create a monopoly on violence. The definition of a state, democratic or otherwise, is the monopoly of violence. Doesn't matter if it's absolutist monarchy, Scandinavian-style Social Democracy, or Al-Shabab-style Somali tribal rule -- if you have the ability to compel action then you can create a state. ISIS was issuing passports, IDs, and currency, for example. You don't have to play by their rules... but then again they don't have to keep .45 rounds from going into the back of your head. Monopoly of Force is entirely separate from issues of authority or legitimacy; everyone can hate your illegitimate rule but if they can't do shit about it then you still win. You hate the Tsar for having too much authority, but he's got secret police and an army so you stfu and keep your head down. Meanwhile, US citizens hate Trump but concede he won a legitimate election and, in spite of having like 40% of the world's guns, don't revolt in the street. > What fiction fails to teach you is that being good at violence is a lot of work! To be good at it you need to take krav or bjj or mma classes at least 3 times a week and go to the gun range at least once a week. I disagree with all of those minimums. Even in the Marines I didn't go to the range once a week, and I was a 'POG' supporting an infantry unit. We only PT'd 3 times a week, though some of us did more. > I personally think society would gain vast benefits from making dueling legal again. Sadly the lawyers would never allow it because they would lose half their business! History would disagree, and dueling was plainly outlawed for a reason. The appeal-ad-lawyeram is also not an argument; there were plenty of rich lawyers when dueling was a thing (several US Founding Fathers come to mind), and the legal business is currently incredibly competitive in terms of jobs right now -- without dueling.