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This is pretty cool to see programs "solving" video games. Although, for the most part I don't think this will affect play much. All-in strategies like this ten

This is pretty cool to see programs "solving" video games. Although, for the most part I don't think this will affect play much. All-in strategies like this tend to only work if the other player is unprepared. Granted, this is a very fast rush and perhaps still very difficult to scout and notice early enough to counter, but the Starcraft community does tend to go back and forth finding and countering new builds (Perhaps the next step is to use a program to find a counter to this). The two points about the build that the article mentions as counter-intuitive don't seem that strange to me since it is a rush (all-in) build. The extractor trick is well known and I would believe that it sacrifices economy long term but it gives you an extra drone (= more money) early on which is good for a rush. The double overlord is there to support the seven roaches that you build almost all at once. At the beginning of the game, you can only afford to build one unit at a time so you can also replenish supply one overlord at a time. As the game progresses and you start pumping out large number of units at a time, you have to also be producing multiple overlords simultaneously to keep up with supply. Although this is very early, the all-in rush to produce 7 roaches requires a fast increase in supply. To give an idea of how fast this is, the build ends at around 31 supply, about half of which is the attacking roach units. Max supply is 200 and mid-game is probably somewhere around 50-70 supply.

icegreentea 16y ago
I haven't looked into SC2 as much, but in the BW version of the the extractor trick, the cost-benefit tips at some point within the timespan of 'rushes'. That is, it'll be wonderful for very very fast rushes, but more 'patient' rushes are harmed by it. And at least for BW rushes, the trend seemed to be in the last bit before SC2 came out to trend towards more patient rushes. People weren't even looking for the win off the rushes anymore, but rather some sort of fast econ harrass to early map control. That mind set, where fast extractor tricks were optimal probably carried over a bit into the SC2 build making process.
- Brashman 16y ago
  Yes, most high level play isn't really looking to do all-in rushes like this. The goal is more to "fast econ harrass to early map control" giving you an early advantage and allowing you to eventually win.
  - Chris_Morrell 16y ago
    I'd have to disagree regarding rushes in high level play. I most enjoy 4v4 random and a key move is decimating one opponent's economy to the point that they become a non-factor in the game. With this build order in a 4v4 one player can neutralize a Protoss or Zerg player and then pivot to mutas or continue with roach/hydra. Since your economy isn't in shambles like a traditional 6 pool zergling rush, even if you fail with the roaches you are still left in acceptable shape to assist your teammates. I specify this being useful in 4v4 against Protoss/Zerg as Terran traditionally wall and the few seconds it takes to burst through the wall may give their teammates time to mobilize. Note- I wrote this under the impression that your mentioning "all-in rushes" didn't include sending your drones in to act as meat shields. In a 4v4 that would be suicide and invalidate my point.
    - NickPollard 16y ago
      By 'High-level play' he is most likely referring to tournaments and the e-sports scene, which is almost entirely 1v1 and plays very differently from 4v4.
      - Chris_Morrell 16y ago
        I see. In that case it applies even more. It might be considered a cheese rush but an all-in with your drones would be very hard to counter unless they were able to hold the choke. It would have a good chance of ending the game in under 8 minutes versus drawing it out another 5-7 minutes.
        jacoblyles 16y ago
        It seems like cheese has failed more often than not so far in the GSL. At best it's a 50-50 proposition. Tester deftly deflected cheese attempts from Hyperdub and NexFreeSaga before crushing the remains of their army in season 1. On the other hand, fan favorite TLO was eliminated by some proxy barracks from the cheese-loving Hyperdub and GSL season 1 winner aFruitDealer showed that he wasn't above a cheese game or two with a ballsy six-pool on a four spawn map against Inca. Cheese fails every time if it's spotted against a high-level player, which is why it's cheese. These guys have definitely practiced against 6-pool, proxy gate, proxy rax, 7 roach rush a thousand times. There's no way they would take a cheesy loss with $80,000 on the line or give up the easy counter and auto-win.

icegreentea 16y ago

I haven't looked into SC2 as much, but in the BW version of the the extractor trick, the cost-benefit tips at some point within the timespan of 'rushes'. That is, it'll be wonderful for very very fast rushes, but more 'patient' rushes are harmed by it. And at least for BW rushes, the trend seemed to be in the last bit before SC2 came out to trend towards more patient rushes. People weren't even looking for the win off the rushes anymore, but rather some sort of fast econ harrass to early map control. That mind set, where fast extractor tricks were optimal probably carried over a bit into the SC2 build making process.

Brashman 16y ago
Yes, most high level play isn't really looking to do all-in rushes like this. The goal is more to "fast econ harrass to early map control" giving you an early advantage and allowing you to eventually win.
- Chris_Morrell 16y ago
  I'd have to disagree regarding rushes in high level play. I most enjoy 4v4 random and a key move is decimating one opponent's economy to the point that they become a non-factor in the game. With this build order in a 4v4 one player can neutralize a Protoss or Zerg player and then pivot to mutas or continue with roach/hydra. Since your economy isn't in shambles like a traditional 6 pool zergling rush, even if you fail with the roaches you are still left in acceptable shape to assist your teammates. I specify this being useful in 4v4 against Protoss/Zerg as Terran traditionally wall and the few seconds it takes to burst through the wall may give their teammates time to mobilize. Note- I wrote this under the impression that your mentioning "all-in rushes" didn't include sending your drones in to act as meat shields. In a 4v4 that would be suicide and invalidate my point.
  - NickPollard 16y ago
    By 'High-level play' he is most likely referring to tournaments and the e-sports scene, which is almost entirely 1v1 and plays very differently from 4v4.
    - Chris_Morrell 16y ago
      I see. In that case it applies even more. It might be considered a cheese rush but an all-in with your drones would be very hard to counter unless they were able to hold the choke. It would have a good chance of ending the game in under 8 minutes versus drawing it out another 5-7 minutes.
      - jacoblyles 16y ago
        It seems like cheese has failed more often than not so far in the GSL. At best it's a 50-50 proposition. Tester deftly deflected cheese attempts from Hyperdub and NexFreeSaga before crushing the remains of their army in season 1. On the other hand, fan favorite TLO was eliminated by some proxy barracks from the cheese-loving Hyperdub and GSL season 1 winner aFruitDealer showed that he wasn't above a cheese game or two with a ballsy six-pool on a four spawn map against Inca. Cheese fails every time if it's spotted against a high-level player, which is why it's cheese. These guys have definitely practiced against 6-pool, proxy gate, proxy rax, 7 roach rush a thousand times. There's no way they would take a cheesy loss with $80,000 on the line or give up the easy counter and auto-win.