5 ms·

I don't have to imagine - Australia has a much higher minimum wage than America and we still have plenty of restaurants. Maybe their margins are just better. Ma

I don't have to imagine - Australia has a much higher minimum wage than America and we still have plenty of restaurants. Maybe their margins are just better. Maybe that one particular restaurant would go out of business and others would continue, maybe they'd raise their prices along with their competitors.

strken 8y ago
Speaking as an Australian living in the US, it's a little bit different. Australians are used to the higher price of food, have been trained not to expect table service, have a rigorous set of laws around underpaying trainees and teens, have endemic "under the counter" wage fraud to avoid taxes and the minimum wage, and don't feel morally obliged to tip their expensive waiters and waitresses. Maybe if America slowly increased the minimum wage at inflation + 10% each year, it would end up in the same place as Australia. Right now, US social rules and expectations are set up around a low minimum wage, and doubling that minimum wage overnight might rock the boat a lot.
- taneq 8y ago
  > Australians are used to the higher price of food, have been trained not to expect table service, have a rigorous set of laws around underpaying trainees and teens, have endemic "under the counter" wage fraud to avoid taxes and the minimum wage, and don't feel morally obliged to tip their expensive waiters and waitresses. Woah. One of these things is not like the other ones. (As an Aussie, though, the tipping thing just seems weird. It's nice to tip a little for really good waitstaff, but if doing so means they get a pay cut on their hourly wage then that's bogus. Paying your staff poverty rates because you expect them to live off tips is like paying your police force poverty rates because you expect them to live off bribes.)
  - rdlecler1 8y ago
    That’s a false equivalency.
    - winston_smith 8y ago
      "False equivalency" is a nonsense phrase. Analogies aren't true or false.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    That is a very wrong metaphor. A waiter literally works for you during the meal you tip for. A policeman is not supposed to.
    - taneq 8y ago
      I guess this is a perfect illustration of the difference in perception, because I wrote that thinking "the waiter works for the establishment (for pittance) and you tip (bribe) them for better service (nicer treatment).
    - AllegedAlec 8y ago
      > A waiter literally works for you during the meal you tip for. No, they work for the restaurant. Their job is to relay orders from me to the kitchen and bar.
      - TomMarius 8y ago
        And you think that a human alternative to conveyor belt is worth more than the current minimal wage? You got the whole thing wrong, and you managed to insult every waiter and waitress in the process: A waiter does so much more than that. They generally take care of you - they help you to choose your places to your liking, undress, seat, they recommend food based on their expertise and clever judging of their client, and so on - they generally take care of you, and that can and is (and should) way more complex than being a human conveyor belt. The actual argument is whether this job is a job done to the customer or to the restaurant (because it can be thought of as a whole package service or their image). Americans think that the waiter will help a client more if the client is the person who pays them - literally, with actual cash changing hands. Other people don't. I'm from such country and sometimes it leads to horrendous results, however most of the time it's OK - yeah, "OK", never great, so I definitely can see the point the Americans have. Overall, IMO there are places where human staff is appropriate (fine dining places, brewery, upclass cafe...) - tipping is appropriate here. Of course there are places where the point is to obtain a plate and eat everything as soon as possible so you can be gone - but IMO people shouldn't serve the plates at these places.
  - strken 8y ago
    It's actually sort of related. Because US waitstaff get so much of their pay in tips, the industry commits fraud by under-reporting them, while in Australia the industry actually pays its staff, and so commits fraud by under-reporting hours and headcount. I'm sure prices will rise a bit until everyone figures out how to rip off the taxman again.

strken 8y ago

Speaking as an Australian living in the US, it's a little bit different. Australians are used to the higher price of food, have been trained not to expect table service, have a rigorous set of laws around underpaying trainees and teens, have endemic "under the counter" wage fraud to avoid taxes and the minimum wage, and don't feel morally obliged to tip their expensive waiters and waitresses. Maybe if America slowly increased the minimum wage at inflation + 10% each year, it would end up in the same place as Australia. Right now, US social rules and expectations are set up around a low minimum wage, and doubling that minimum wage overnight might rock the boat a lot.

taneq 8y ago
> Australians are used to the higher price of food, have been trained not to expect table service, have a rigorous set of laws around underpaying trainees and teens, have endemic "under the counter" wage fraud to avoid taxes and the minimum wage, and don't feel morally obliged to tip their expensive waiters and waitresses. Woah. One of these things is not like the other ones. (As an Aussie, though, the tipping thing just seems weird. It's nice to tip a little for really good waitstaff, but if doing so means they get a pay cut on their hourly wage then that's bogus. Paying your staff poverty rates because you expect them to live off tips is like paying your police force poverty rates because you expect them to live off bribes.)
- rdlecler1 8y ago
  That’s a false equivalency.
  - winston_smith 8y ago
    "False equivalency" is a nonsense phrase. Analogies aren't true or false.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  That is a very wrong metaphor. A waiter literally works for you during the meal you tip for. A policeman is not supposed to.
  - taneq 8y ago
    I guess this is a perfect illustration of the difference in perception, because I wrote that thinking "the waiter works for the establishment (for pittance) and you tip (bribe) them for better service (nicer treatment).
  - AllegedAlec 8y ago
    > A waiter literally works for you during the meal you tip for. No, they work for the restaurant. Their job is to relay orders from me to the kitchen and bar.
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      And you think that a human alternative to conveyor belt is worth more than the current minimal wage? You got the whole thing wrong, and you managed to insult every waiter and waitress in the process: A waiter does so much more than that. They generally take care of you - they help you to choose your places to your liking, undress, seat, they recommend food based on their expertise and clever judging of their client, and so on - they generally take care of you, and that can and is (and should) way more complex than being a human conveyor belt. The actual argument is whether this job is a job done to the customer or to the restaurant (because it can be thought of as a whole package service or their image). Americans think that the waiter will help a client more if the client is the person who pays them - literally, with actual cash changing hands. Other people don't. I'm from such country and sometimes it leads to horrendous results, however most of the time it's OK - yeah, "OK", never great, so I definitely can see the point the Americans have. Overall, IMO there are places where human staff is appropriate (fine dining places, brewery, upclass cafe...) - tipping is appropriate here. Of course there are places where the point is to obtain a plate and eat everything as soon as possible so you can be gone - but IMO people shouldn't serve the plates at these places.
- strken 8y ago
  It's actually sort of related. Because US waitstaff get so much of their pay in tips, the industry commits fraud by under-reporting them, while in Australia the industry actually pays its staff, and so commits fraud by under-reporting hours and headcount. I'm sure prices will rise a bit until everyone figures out how to rip off the taxman again.