5 ms·

I don't disagree with you, however, the individual in my story was not "poor" - he was part of India's middle class. His father was being paid reasonably well a

by osrec 8y ago

I don't disagree with you, however, the individual in my story was not "poor" - he was part of India's middle class. His father was being paid reasonably well at my dad's firm for the last 20+ years.

yumraj 8y ago
So, while his father was being paid reasonably well according to you - he is employed by your father's firm, which leads me to believe you grew up with considerably more resources to be able to pursue your passions then the child in question. As such, the argument still applies that not everyone has an ability or an opportunity to pursue their passions.
- osrec 8y ago
  My personal situation, on a relative scale, is rather more tragic. I would suggest you not to make that assumption about my upbringing, for you would be quite incorrect.
  - yumraj 8y ago
    Fair enough, mea culpa. However, my argument (stated differently) that passion is a luxury that not everyone can afford, still stands.
    - osrec 8y ago
      I don't think you understand what I'm saying. In a sense, I'm agreeing with you. Passion is a luxury in India, yes, but because of the way society has been set up. We need to change things so as to nurture the passions of our people, rather than have them scrambling for basic necessities. I believe we have all the ingredients to make it happen, but seem to lack the will or a plan.
      - yumraj 8y ago
        I think where I'm disagreeing with you is I believe passion is a luxury due to economic constraints rather than an artifact of societal setup, at least in the modern times. In historic times, and to a lesser extent even now, careers were decided based on family, so there yes societal setup led to suppression of passion. However, even then how much of that was due to economic reasons and how much societal if a difficult question to answer, at least for me. But, OTOH, I do agree that India has all the ingredients to become much greater - how do we get there is a much more complicated topic.
  - kamaal 8y ago
    >>My personal situation, on a relative scale, is rather more tragic. Everybody's is. Imagine what goes in the mind of a boy, who is living and watching crores of people starving in his country. Unless you have abundance for everyone, every ones gathers what they can for themselves.
    - osrec 8y ago
      You are ratifying my point, especially in your deleted comment. The rest of this response was originally for your deleted comment. I think it makes sense here as well: A poorly funded school is a governmental/societal failing. As is the inability to afford basic necessities. It should simply never be that way. We produce enough food to feed c. 10bn people, yet parts of the world go hungry. We can cheaply disseminate education almost anywhere today, yet large portions of the world remain uneducated. In a country like India, these things can now be addressed, if only there was a plan and a sincere effort to execute that plan. I did not mean to hurt you and I sincerely hope you escape/have escaped your hell, but more importantly, that you don't create hell for others once you do escape. Perhaps even try to alleviate the hell of others when you are able to do so. My point is, given the resources we have, life doesn't need to be hell. It can be good, if we manage things properly.
      - kamaal 8y ago
        None of this is happening in India because the problem isn't restricted to just money alone. There are huge social problems to solve. People here still fight elections on the basis of religion and caste.
drieddust 8y ago
It is easy to moralize when you don't know where the shoe bites. It might look decent to you from the outside but even decently paid struggle to keep up because of the following factors: 1. India does not have a social safety net so every man or family is for themselves. This just forces people to give first priority to accumulation of money. 2. Even a decent life style in India is not affordable unless you are a business which is either insanely profitable or knows how to hide profits. Even the top bracket earners can't afford decent life style unless they are willing to live hand to mouth or on credit. 3. Suburbs and small cities are so under developed that you can't live there unless you have made a decision to compromise your Children future. Fun fact: My salary is in top 10-20% range of what you can get in India but the moment I step into India my savings rate drop to almost close to zero due to following factors: Taxes: You salary is taxed at 35% effectively. This is money you are paying with no returns to be seen. Remember there is no social safety net. If you are saving for modest future via Employee provident fund, your in-hand income drops to 50% of the stated salary. Rent or Mortgage: Unless you were lucky or have an ancestral property in the right place, you will be paying a decent chunk of your income to rent seekers who will push for a 10% increases Y-o-Y unless you are willing to move bases every 11 months. With Kids going to school, it's not easy to switch every year. You can save this money only when you are willing to put up in shady neighborhood or travel from out skirts for 2-3 hours each side. Schools & Education: There are only a few good state run Schools so putting kids into Private Schools (which are ironically called Public School) is the only option. This costs significant chunk of your remaining income. Transportation: You have to buy a car to get anywhere as public transport is overcrowded and not very comfortable especially for Children and elderly. Even then you don't save much as travel from your home to these public transport will still cost you decent money as you just can't walk to public transport.
- msiyer 8y ago
  > You salary is taxed at 35% effectively This is what is directly visible. Less than 3% of the population pays income tax while tax is deducted at source for the salaried class: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/policy/why-income-tax-payers-in-india-are-a-small-and-shrinking-breed/articleshow/56929550.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/policy/why... If you dare to save, the interest earned is taxed. If you try to spend, the spending is taxed - buy a house or a car or a motorcycle, all luxury items by Indian government's standards, you are taxed heavily. The bribes collected by the government officials increase the tax burden. By the way, bribes are now expected and people refusing to take or give are looked down upon: https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/211117/registration-department-is-most-corrupt-in-tamil-nadu-says-madras-hc.html https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/21111... All this while the mega rich are enjoying tax breaks. > rent seekers who will push for a 10% increases Y-o-Y unless The landlords are fleecing tenants. However, it is the tenants' responsibility to make sure the landowner pays tax: https://www.livemint.com/Money/hfutqMoI7miJYiIidCNV4M/If-monthly-rent-is-above-8333-landlords-PAN-is-a-must.html https://www.livemint.com/Money/hfutqMoI7miJYiIidCNV4M/If-mon...

by osrec 8y ago

I don't disagree with you, however, the individual in my story was not "poor" - he was part of India's middle class. His father was being paid reasonably well at my dad's firm for the last 20+ years.

yumraj 8y ago

So, while his father was being paid reasonably well according to you - he is employed by your father's firm, which leads me to believe you grew up with considerably more resources to be able to pursue your passions then the child in question. As such, the argument still applies that not everyone has an ability or an opportunity to pursue their passions.

osrec 8y ago
My personal situation, on a relative scale, is rather more tragic. I would suggest you not to make that assumption about my upbringing, for you would be quite incorrect.
- yumraj 8y ago
  Fair enough, mea culpa. However, my argument (stated differently) that passion is a luxury that not everyone can afford, still stands.
  - osrec 8y ago
    I don't think you understand what I'm saying. In a sense, I'm agreeing with you. Passion is a luxury in India, yes, but because of the way society has been set up. We need to change things so as to nurture the passions of our people, rather than have them scrambling for basic necessities. I believe we have all the ingredients to make it happen, but seem to lack the will or a plan.
    - yumraj 8y ago
      I think where I'm disagreeing with you is I believe passion is a luxury due to economic constraints rather than an artifact of societal setup, at least in the modern times. In historic times, and to a lesser extent even now, careers were decided based on family, so there yes societal setup led to suppression of passion. However, even then how much of that was due to economic reasons and how much societal if a difficult question to answer, at least for me. But, OTOH, I do agree that India has all the ingredients to become much greater - how do we get there is a much more complicated topic.
- kamaal 8y ago
  >>My personal situation, on a relative scale, is rather more tragic. Everybody's is. Imagine what goes in the mind of a boy, who is living and watching crores of people starving in his country. Unless you have abundance for everyone, every ones gathers what they can for themselves.
  - osrec 8y ago
    You are ratifying my point, especially in your deleted comment. The rest of this response was originally for your deleted comment. I think it makes sense here as well: A poorly funded school is a governmental/societal failing. As is the inability to afford basic necessities. It should simply never be that way. We produce enough food to feed c. 10bn people, yet parts of the world go hungry. We can cheaply disseminate education almost anywhere today, yet large portions of the world remain uneducated. In a country like India, these things can now be addressed, if only there was a plan and a sincere effort to execute that plan. I did not mean to hurt you and I sincerely hope you escape/have escaped your hell, but more importantly, that you don't create hell for others once you do escape. Perhaps even try to alleviate the hell of others when you are able to do so. My point is, given the resources we have, life doesn't need to be hell. It can be good, if we manage things properly.
    - kamaal 8y ago
      None of this is happening in India because the problem isn't restricted to just money alone. There are huge social problems to solve. People here still fight elections on the basis of religion and caste.

drieddust 8y ago

It is easy to moralize when you don't know where the shoe bites. It might look decent to you from the outside but even decently paid struggle to keep up because of the following factors: 1. India does not have a social safety net so every man or family is for themselves. This just forces people to give first priority to accumulation of money. 2. Even a decent life style in India is not affordable unless you are a business which is either insanely profitable or knows how to hide profits. Even the top bracket earners can't afford decent life style unless they are willing to live hand to mouth or on credit. 3. Suburbs and small cities are so under developed that you can't live there unless you have made a decision to compromise your Children future. Fun fact: My salary is in top 10-20% range of what you can get in India but the moment I step into India my savings rate drop to almost close to zero due to following factors: Taxes: You salary is taxed at 35% effectively. This is money you are paying with no returns to be seen. Remember there is no social safety net. If you are saving for modest future via Employee provident fund, your in-hand income drops to 50% of the stated salary. Rent or Mortgage: Unless you were lucky or have an ancestral property in the right place, you will be paying a decent chunk of your income to rent seekers who will push for a 10% increases Y-o-Y unless you are willing to move bases every 11 months. With Kids going to school, it's not easy to switch every year. You can save this money only when you are willing to put up in shady neighborhood or travel from out skirts for 2-3 hours each side. Schools & Education: There are only a few good state run Schools so putting kids into Private Schools (which are ironically called Public School) is the only option. This costs significant chunk of your remaining income. Transportation: You have to buy a car to get anywhere as public transport is overcrowded and not very comfortable especially for Children and elderly. Even then you don't save much as travel from your home to these public transport will still cost you decent money as you just can't walk to public transport.

msiyer 8y ago
> You salary is taxed at 35% effectively This is what is directly visible. Less than 3% of the population pays income tax while tax is deducted at source for the salaried class: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/policy/why-income-tax-payers-in-india-are-a-small-and-shrinking-breed/articleshow/56929550.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/policy/why... If you dare to save, the interest earned is taxed. If you try to spend, the spending is taxed - buy a house or a car or a motorcycle, all luxury items by Indian government's standards, you are taxed heavily. The bribes collected by the government officials increase the tax burden. By the way, bribes are now expected and people refusing to take or give are looked down upon: https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/211117/registration-department-is-most-corrupt-in-tamil-nadu-says-madras-hc.html https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/21111... All this while the mega rich are enjoying tax breaks. > rent seekers who will push for a 10% increases Y-o-Y unless The landlords are fleecing tenants. However, it is the tenants' responsibility to make sure the landowner pays tax: https://www.livemint.com/Money/hfutqMoI7miJYiIidCNV4M/If-monthly-rent-is-above-8333-landlords-PAN-is-a-must.html https://www.livemint.com/Money/hfutqMoI7miJYiIidCNV4M/If-mon...