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Some quotes that stood out: > In September, a Chinese official at the U.N. Human Rights Council in Geneva said the West could learn from his country’s program

by avar 8y ago

Some quotes that stood out: > In September, a Chinese official at the U.N. Human Rights Council in Geneva said the West could learn from his country’s program of vocational training. “If you do not say it’s the best way, maybe it’s the necessary way to deal with Islamic or religious extremism, because the West has failed in doing so,” said Li Xiaojun, the director of publicity at the Bureau of Human Rights Affairs of the State Council Information Office. > The Chinese government has been trying to change the ethnic balance by shifting members of the majority Han Chinese into the region. [...] > Photos of ancestors and prayer mats usually on display in Kazakh homes were all gone. They were “burned,” the locals told him. “These items,” he said, “were replaced with photos of the Chinese president and Chinese flags.” As someone unfamiliar with the situation, a question I still have is whether this is something unique or unusual for the Chinese government, or how they'd treat any other mass of people following some organized ideology or creed they saw as competing with their totalitarianism. E.g. I've heard about their efforts to shift the ethnic balance in Tibet, has that been followed-up with similar indoctrination efforts?

forkLding 8y ago
Well until now minority groups got preferential treatment as compared to Han Chinese. You will notice that the ethnic Uyghur Xinjiang governor actually supporting the camps. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_China Otherwise now the Party is treating the same way they treat normal Han Chinese who have different thoughts on the CCP. However not everyone in Xinjiang is affected, mostly the religious.
- nyolfen 8y ago
  normal han have been getting sent to camps for things like growing a beard or having a family member who talked to somebody in a different country?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
NicoJuicy 8y ago
They can't force Tibet as much as they want to. They are taking a slower approach there. They were granted "autonomy" in the past.
- jgbond 8y ago
  Xinjiang is an autonomous region, too. Tibet has been thoroughly “Hanified,” though you’re right that it hasn’t been as dramatic as in Xinjiang. The same is true for other ethnic minorities, too. Traditional costumes are kept to pay lip service to plurality, and there are some parks that feel more like Epcot Center exhibits. It’s not all due to government intervention, but China’s ethnic minorities are disappearing.
  - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
    I would guess that the Chinese government is worried (rightly or wrongly) about outside (armed) support for Muslims in Xinjiang, and less concerned about the Tibetans tapping into international support, which to date has been fairly ineffectual. To my eye they are making such foreign involvement more likely, not less, with this overt campaign of imprisonment and mistreatment.
elefanten 8y ago
The part about incentivizing / cooking up other ways to relocate Han majority citizens is not unique or unusual. According to many reports, it's been going on in Hong Kong and Taiwan for a long time. ed. Tibet too
Leary 8y ago
A good predictor of whether the Chinese government would react to a group is the threat that group poses on the national integrity of China. Any separatist/ independence movement will be harshly treated. You can find many examples of this. There is nothing the West that says or do that will change this policy.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  > A good predictor of whether the Chinese government would react to a group is the threat that group poses on the national integrity of China. I think the more accurate interpretation, which applies to authoritarian or totalitarian power, is that they don't tolerate competing power structures. A competing power structure, whether a political group, a labor union, a spiritual organization, can easily become a political organization and therefore a threat to the power of the government. If they are organized and independent, they are a threat. The government's motive is to protect and enhance its own power. Think about the Falun Gong: Certainly they were no threat to the "national integrity" (whatever that means precisely) of China. Also consider labor and human rights movements, who have no interest in separatism. In fact, democracies are much more stable governments in general, and are more likely to preserve "national integrity". Think also about the Chinese military, which IIRC is under control of the Communist Party, not the government. They are careful to not allow it to be an independent power structure - an independent military has been the downfall of many authoritarian governments (usually replacing them with another authoritarian government).
pavlov 8y ago
> ”... how they'd treat any other mass of people following some organized ideology or creed they saw as competing with their totalitarianism” Falun Gong is the blueprint for this: a homegrown spiritual practice that gained too much popularity in the ‘90s and the authorities turned against it. Human rights groups estimate hundreds of thousands are still in “re-education” camps.
- walrus01 8y ago
  Vancouver, BC / Richmond BC area here, which has a >30% Chinese-ethnicity population: Whenever Falun Gong makes the press here, there is a relatively active English language social media astroturfing campaign, and fake news campaign that has been going around for at least 15-20 years which attempts to equate Falun Gong with known harmful cults which Westerners are familiar with. I've seen it compared to Heaven's Gate, the Branch Davidians, and Jim Jones' Peoples' Temple. As best I can determine it's a buddhist/meditation group that disagrees with the Chinese government on principles of fundamental human rights.
  - ashelmire 8y ago
    That same campaign seems pretty active in this very HN post. Lots of apologists for the communist regime here, with some not so subtle approvals of racism and genocide.
    - rqs 8y ago
      > Lots of apologists for the communist regime here Pure ignorant at it's best. If you don't encounter any of them in the real life, you don't put comment on. Don't just sitting in your little chair and imagining how things are. It's very simple to get the truth out, just pickup some Chinese people on Twitter, and ask them about it. Or, maybe ask around on GitHub, you surely know or can found some Chinese developers there. Oh, guess what, I found one for you, take a look: https://github.com/cirosantilli/chat/issues/4 https://github.com/cirosantilli/chat/issues/4 In one comment: > The China government and the CCP is evil, we all know that. But with all respect, is "that religion" Falun Gong? If so, I strongly advise you to help your mother in law get rid of that cult, as much as you can. It's really a cult[1] even more evil than CCP.
rasz 8y ago
Just like Rocket technology, this policy was imported from Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification
forapurpose 8y ago
It's not unique or unusual for dictatorships in general. The Soviet Union, for example, worked hard at indoctrination, as did Mao. Arguably, any propaganda is indoctrination.

by avar 8y ago

forkLding 8y ago

Well until now minority groups got preferential treatment as compared to Han Chinese. You will notice that the ethnic Uyghur Xinjiang governor actually supporting the camps. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_China Otherwise now the Party is treating the same way they treat normal Han Chinese who have different thoughts on the CCP. However not everyone in Xinjiang is affected, mostly the religious.

nyolfen 8y ago
normal han have been getting sent to camps for things like growing a beard or having a family member who talked to somebody in a different country?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

NicoJuicy 8y ago

They can't force Tibet as much as they want to. They are taking a slower approach there. They were granted "autonomy" in the past.

jgbond 8y ago
Xinjiang is an autonomous region, too. Tibet has been thoroughly “Hanified,” though you’re right that it hasn’t been as dramatic as in Xinjiang. The same is true for other ethnic minorities, too. Traditional costumes are kept to pay lip service to plurality, and there are some parks that feel more like Epcot Center exhibits. It’s not all due to government intervention, but China’s ethnic minorities are disappearing.
- blacksmith_tb 8y ago
  I would guess that the Chinese government is worried (rightly or wrongly) about outside (armed) support for Muslims in Xinjiang, and less concerned about the Tibetans tapping into international support, which to date has been fairly ineffectual. To my eye they are making such foreign involvement more likely, not less, with this overt campaign of imprisonment and mistreatment.

elefanten 8y ago

The part about incentivizing / cooking up other ways to relocate Han majority citizens is not unique or unusual. According to many reports, it's been going on in Hong Kong and Taiwan for a long time. ed. Tibet too

Leary 8y ago

A good predictor of whether the Chinese government would react to a group is the threat that group poses on the national integrity of China. Any separatist/ independence movement will be harshly treated. You can find many examples of this. There is nothing the West that says or do that will change this policy.

forapurpose 8y ago
> A good predictor of whether the Chinese government would react to a group is the threat that group poses on the national integrity of China. I think the more accurate interpretation, which applies to authoritarian or totalitarian power, is that they don't tolerate competing power structures. A competing power structure, whether a political group, a labor union, a spiritual organization, can easily become a political organization and therefore a threat to the power of the government. If they are organized and independent, they are a threat. The government's motive is to protect and enhance its own power. Think about the Falun Gong: Certainly they were no threat to the "national integrity" (whatever that means precisely) of China. Also consider labor and human rights movements, who have no interest in separatism. In fact, democracies are much more stable governments in general, and are more likely to preserve "national integrity". Think also about the Chinese military, which IIRC is under control of the Communist Party, not the government. They are careful to not allow it to be an independent power structure - an independent military has been the downfall of many authoritarian governments (usually replacing them with another authoritarian government).

pavlov 8y ago

> ”... how they'd treat any other mass of people following some organized ideology or creed they saw as competing with their totalitarianism” Falun Gong is the blueprint for this: a homegrown spiritual practice that gained too much popularity in the ‘90s and the authorities turned against it. Human rights groups estimate hundreds of thousands are still in “re-education” camps.

walrus01 8y ago
Vancouver, BC / Richmond BC area here, which has a >30% Chinese-ethnicity population: Whenever Falun Gong makes the press here, there is a relatively active English language social media astroturfing campaign, and fake news campaign that has been going around for at least 15-20 years which attempts to equate Falun Gong with known harmful cults which Westerners are familiar with. I've seen it compared to Heaven's Gate, the Branch Davidians, and Jim Jones' Peoples' Temple. As best I can determine it's a buddhist/meditation group that disagrees with the Chinese government on principles of fundamental human rights.
- ashelmire 8y ago
  That same campaign seems pretty active in this very HN post. Lots of apologists for the communist regime here, with some not so subtle approvals of racism and genocide.
  - rqs 8y ago
    > Lots of apologists for the communist regime here Pure ignorant at it's best. If you don't encounter any of them in the real life, you don't put comment on. Don't just sitting in your little chair and imagining how things are. It's very simple to get the truth out, just pickup some Chinese people on Twitter, and ask them about it. Or, maybe ask around on GitHub, you surely know or can found some Chinese developers there. Oh, guess what, I found one for you, take a look: https://github.com/cirosantilli/chat/issues/4 https://github.com/cirosantilli/chat/issues/4 In one comment: > The China government and the CCP is evil, we all know that. But with all respect, is "that religion" Falun Gong? If so, I strongly advise you to help your mother in law get rid of that cult, as much as you can. It's really a cult[1] even more evil than CCP.

rasz 8y ago

Just like Rocket technology, this policy was imported from Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

forapurpose 8y ago

It's not unique or unusual for dictatorships in general. The Soviet Union, for example, worked hard at indoctrination, as did Mao. Arguably, any propaganda is indoctrination.