10 ms·

I think BCIs are super exciting. Humans have such high bandwidth in terms of input; tons of information is interpreted by our nervous system every second. Yet i

I think BCIs are super exciting. Humans have such high bandwidth in terms of input; tons of information is interpreted by our nervous system every second. Yet in terms of output, we are relatively poor; we can only type a few words a minute! This article suggests we could one day work 'like digital octopuses' but I'm naturally dubious, do you think it's possible as CTRL-labs propose that we could entirely rewire our nervous systems' output to let us operate computers as if we had multiple hands?

samlynnevans 8y ago
Great points. Thomas reardon (CTRL-labs founder) says the same in a talk you can see on YouTube (definitely check it out). I share your doubts, and wonder exactly how neuroplastic we are. Perhaps we are simply built to operate in a certain way, and solely tapping in to our nerves responsible for output won't necessarily allow us to output in hugely different ways. Even if possible, it may not be so simple,and instead becoming a digital octopus may be like having to learn the piano, requiring years of practice!
- Cyphase 8y ago
  Here's that talk you mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z5aZK2C3ew https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z5aZK2C3ew (2018 O'Reilly AI Keynote, Thomas Reardon, CEO, CTRL-labs)
  - samlynnevans 8y ago
    Cheers!
carapace 8y ago
> do you think it's possible as CTRL-labs propose that we could entirely rewire our nervous systems' output to let us operate computers as if we had multiple hands? Yes. You would not quite do it that way though. Your motor cortex is capable of handling that sort of thing[1] but your conscious awareness isn't[2] so you have to develop a kind of expanded awareness, like a dancer or martial artist, but in an abstract space.[3] (I suppose you could just hallucinate having eight arms, now that I think about it.) You don't have to wait, you can get results with crude hardware. The trick is to use hypnosis. See my other comment in this page[4]. We could have fantastic "magical" UI a minute ago, but people connect a brain to a computer and then focus on programming the computer. It's silly. (BTW, our output channels are primarily the face and the whole body[5], but there's evidence that sign language predates spoken language. I've heard that pre-verbal babies can learn to communicate with gestures.) [1] Higher dimensionality or more degrees of freedom [2] Generally, for most people. However it is possible to train your mind to carry out two or more simultaneous activities, such as writing a sentence with one hand while solving a math equation with the other. But this is sort of a stunt. Most folks would never conceivably need to do something like that. [3] Obligatory reference to "Cyberspace", and "Minority Report" UI. [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18564989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18564989 [5] Gait, posture, overall tension/ease, etc.
mrfusion 8y ago
I’m a bit of a contrarian on this issue. If you look at how you type you actually spend more time thinking about what to say rather than typing it out. I think language is extremely high bandwidth. We’re bottling up extremely complex, abstract thoughts into a few symbols.
- taneq 8y ago
  Same. We're pretty good at adapting the information density of language to fit what we need to convey into the available bandwidth.
- gwern 8y ago
  One possibility is that the BCI will allow powerful interaction of the sort simply not possible now based on using brain activations as supervision for understanding material in a way which transports those extremely complex abstractions into the computer in a software-understandable way: https://www.reddit.com/r/reinforcementlearning/comments/9pwy2f/wbe_and_drl_a_middle_way_of_imitation_learning/ https://www.reddit.com/r/reinforcementlearning/comments/9pwy... To give a quick random example: imagine the BCI records your global activations as you read that Reddit post about deep learning augmented by EEG/MRI/etc data; a year later while reading HN about something AI, you want to leave a comment & think to yourself 'what was that thing about using labels from brain imaging' which produces similar activations and the BCI immediately pulls up 10 hits in a sidebar, and you glance over and realize the top one is the post you were thinking of and you can immediately start rereading it. And then of course your brain activations could be decoded into a text summary for the comment which you can slightly edit and then post...

samlynnevans 8y ago

Great points. Thomas reardon (CTRL-labs founder) says the same in a talk you can see on YouTube (definitely check it out). I share your doubts, and wonder exactly how neuroplastic we are. Perhaps we are simply built to operate in a certain way, and solely tapping in to our nerves responsible for output won't necessarily allow us to output in hugely different ways. Even if possible, it may not be so simple,and instead becoming a digital octopus may be like having to learn the piano, requiring years of practice!

Cyphase 8y ago
Here's that talk you mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z5aZK2C3ew https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z5aZK2C3ew (2018 O'Reilly AI Keynote, Thomas Reardon, CEO, CTRL-labs)
- samlynnevans 8y ago
  Cheers!

carapace 8y ago

> do you think it's possible as CTRL-labs propose that we could entirely rewire our nervous systems' output to let us operate computers as if we had multiple hands? Yes. You would not quite do it that way though. Your motor cortex is capable of handling that sort of thing[1] but your conscious awareness isn't[2] so you have to develop a kind of expanded awareness, like a dancer or martial artist, but in an abstract space.[3] (I suppose you could just hallucinate having eight arms, now that I think about it.) You don't have to wait, you can get results with crude hardware. The trick is to use hypnosis. See my other comment in this page[4]. We could have fantastic "magical" UI a minute ago, but people connect a brain to a computer and then focus on programming the computer. It's silly. (BTW, our output channels are primarily the face and the whole body[5], but there's evidence that sign language predates spoken language. I've heard that pre-verbal babies can learn to communicate with gestures.) [1] Higher dimensionality or more degrees of freedom [2] Generally, for most people. However it is possible to train your mind to carry out two or more simultaneous activities, such as writing a sentence with one hand while solving a math equation with the other. But this is sort of a stunt. Most folks would never conceivably need to do something like that. [3] Obligatory reference to "Cyberspace", and "Minority Report" UI. [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18564989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18564989 [5] Gait, posture, overall tension/ease, etc.

mrfusion 8y ago

I’m a bit of a contrarian on this issue. If you look at how you type you actually spend more time thinking about what to say rather than typing it out. I think language is extremely high bandwidth. We’re bottling up extremely complex, abstract thoughts into a few symbols.

taneq 8y ago
Same. We're pretty good at adapting the information density of language to fit what we need to convey into the available bandwidth.
gwern 8y ago
One possibility is that the BCI will allow powerful interaction of the sort simply not possible now based on using brain activations as supervision for understanding material in a way which transports those extremely complex abstractions into the computer in a software-understandable way: https://www.reddit.com/r/reinforcementlearning/comments/9pwy2f/wbe_and_drl_a_middle_way_of_imitation_learning/ https://www.reddit.com/r/reinforcementlearning/comments/9pwy... To give a quick random example: imagine the BCI records your global activations as you read that Reddit post about deep learning augmented by EEG/MRI/etc data; a year later while reading HN about something AI, you want to leave a comment & think to yourself 'what was that thing about using labels from brain imaging' which produces similar activations and the BCI immediately pulls up 10 hits in a sidebar, and you glance over and realize the top one is the post you were thinking of and you can immediately start rereading it. And then of course your brain activations could be decoded into a text summary for the comment which you can slightly edit and then post...