5 ms·

It’s politically incorrect, but I feel like feminism has sold a massive lie to women like this. Admittedly much of what she describes could apply to either gen

by J-dawg 8y ago

It’s politically incorrect, but I feel like feminism has sold a massive lie to women like this. Admittedly much of what she describes could apply to either gender, but it’s women who are hit hardest by fading looks and declining fertility. It used to be accepted cultural knowledge that if a woman desired marriage and children, she should probably spend her ‘best years’ looking for and committing to a husband. Now you’d be labelled a misogynist for even suggesting that. Women have been indoctrinated to think that they can spend their 20s and early 30s being ‘the poster child for serial monogamy’, and then have a husband fall into their lap when they’re ready for it. I’m sure it works out for many of them, but I feel sorry for the ones for whom it doesn’t.

watwut 8y ago
Because it makes for the situation where women is comitted to familly and husband seeing her as nagging wife preventing him to do more fun things then boring familly. And she is nagging in truth, because it is not that great as single people without children imagine. It makes for moms who are criticized for living through children and damaging them that way and kids are supposed to leave anyway. Kids are not supposed to stay to make company to parents anymore.
danbolt 8y ago
I'm a little confused when you say that feminism "has sold a massive lie to women". Feminism as a topic seems really large to me, and I'm not sure what about it you mean when you say that a big lie has been told. Would you be able to clarify?
- Mizza 8y ago
  I think it's less a problem with feminism and more a problem with the corporate misappropriation of feminist attitudes - so, rather than worrying about actually supporting women (paid time off/maternity leave/onsite daycare, etc), society sells women the idea that they can "have it all" - a family while also being treated like men in the workplace (which, it turns out, means being disposable pawns for the capitalist machine). The "Lean In" phenomenon and the mandating of % of women on corporate boards are good examples of this.
- J-dawg 8y ago
  Sure. I used the word ‘feminism’ for brevity, and because I wasn’t really sure what else to call it. I’ll try to summarise what I mean. Women used to be under great pressure (cultural, religious, family) to find a good man and settle down. They were also shamed for promiscuity. In the western world, we’ve largely got rid of all this pressure and shame (thank goodness) but the fact remains that women face a very different biological reality to men. Most of them have a powerful urge to be a mother, and a limited window in which to do it. Anonymous city living, dating apps and the removal of shame associated with promiscuity have made it extremely easy for a young woman to enjoy being a “25 year old sexpot” (her description, not mine). Male attention is plentiful, and as a result there’s no reason to hang on to a particular man, why not keep looking and see what else is out there? Ask any younger guy who has been on the dating scene recently - 20-something women are increasingly flaky and unwilling to commit to anything. I don’t begrudge women any of this, but the big lie I mentioned is the idea that a woman can just switch into “long term partner mode” when she decides the time is right. Building a relationship stable enough to have kids in takes years, and a man (generally speaking) doesn’t want to feel like he’s been chosen just as a sperm donor. Guys who want to commit, want to commit to a 25 year old sexpot. And the ‘alpha’ guys who will never commit can always find another 25 year old sexpot. This is what I meant by the big lie. I’m not trying to say it’s all terrible or that society is going to hell, but it has backfired on the women who don’t recognise it.
  - danbolt 8y ago
    Thanks for taking the time to clarify what you meant. I think I can see what you mean about how you don't really have a word to describe the picture you're painting. I don't know if I agree with you about the idea that women want children more than men do as a matter of biology. Speaking "as a younger guy who has been on the dating scene recently" (your description, not mine), women seem really varied to me in terms of what they want. Some hate the thought of having children and wish other women would stop talking about them. Others tell me being a parent is something they've always wanted. I've known plenty of 20-something women that don't really care for children, but their long-term 20-something male partners vehemently do. I say this as someone partaking in anonymous city living in a "liberal" west-coast environment. I think women's attitudes on children are actually pretty varied, and the shadow of how we used to expect them to act/live still lingers over the twenty-first century. Philosophers like Butler[1] often propose that we're treated as a child specific ways due to our sex, and we internalize it and kind of have this self-reinforcing culture. I think this plays a lot into our assumptions about women's attitudes, and how we treat them in turn, and they respond in turn. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_gender#Applications_of_gender_performance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_gender#...
bad_user 8y ago
This is true for men as well. Me and my wife have an 8 year old son, however I'm 36 years old and right now I don't feel like I'm capable of having another child. Our son is a premature baby, born at 30 weeks, after what was a very troubled pregnancy. And then when he was one year old he suffered from Lyell's syndrome. Plus he's always been more sensitive to catching cold, etc. Now at 8 years old he's a healthy, good looking boy, does well in school, etc and I tell you, it's a miracle that he turned out as well as he did. We were also fortunate to live with my mother in law. It's great to have one of your parents around. She babysits for us, she cooks for us, etc. Other people aren't as fortunate. Being a parent is freaking hard sometimes. Being a parent is also the only thing that I'll never regret, possibly the best thing we ever did in our life. But you need the energy of your twenties to do it. The sooner you do it, the better. Even if you're a man.
- J-dawg 8y ago
  It’s not true for men to anything like the same extent. I totally understand why you don’t have the energy for another kid. We’re the same age and I don’t think I’ve got the energy for one kid. But the fact remains that biologically you could have another kid now or in 10, perhaps even 20 years. For a woman that’s a virtual impossibility. You can’t pretend it’s the same thing.
- duderific 8y ago
  I'm a man, and I had my first kid at 45, just had my second at 49. I didn't plan for it to be this way; my wife is 10 years younger than me, and she wasn't ready to have kids until she was in her mid 30's. I do sometimes wish I'd been able to have kids sooner; I'll be pretty old by the time my kids go off to college, and I'll be very old if/when I ever see any grandchildren. However, I'd like to say, don't not have kids just because you may be a bit older than average. I'm pretty able to handle it so far, despite the lack of sleep and stress that goes along with having kids. It's such an incredible experience and greatly enriches one's life.
rayiner 8y ago
I wouldn't call it feminism, but the lingering effects of the sexual revolution, which was dominated heavily by male interest. (Read Dworkin's "Right Wing Women." TLDR version, the sexual revolution was heavily influenced by male desire to make women more sexually available: https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Andrea-DWORKIN-Right-Wing-Women-The-Politics-of-Domesticated-Females-19831.pdf https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010... (pp. 94-95)) Iliza Shlesinger has a great point about this in one of her routines. > You’ve also been holding in… your intentions. We have this really nasty habit in our society of labeling women very cruel and unfair things when they express their desire for very normal things. Monogamy, exclusivity, a relationship, a family, babies. Right? We like to call them desperate, sad, psychos, baby crazy. “We’ve been married for six years. She already wants a kid! I’m a fuck man! They can’t get me.” It’s very normal to want these things. https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2018/07/30/iliza-shlesinger-elder-millennial-2018-full-transcript/ https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2018/07/30/iliza-shlesinger-el...
- notyourday 8y ago
  Or you could read Dawkins' "Selfish Gene" and or if you want something lighter Matt Ridley's "The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature" to have it debunked.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    Have what debunked?
    - notyourday 8y ago
      > I wouldn't call it feminism, but the lingering effects of the sexual revolution, which was dominated heavily by male interest. (Read Dworkin's "Right Wing Women." TLDR version, the sexual revolution was heavily influenced by male desire to make women more sexually available: https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010.. https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010.... (pp. 94-95)) Iliza Shlesinger has a great point about this in one of her routines. That.
ashika 8y ago
As other posters mention, no path in life is guaranteed to be fulfilling for all individuals. Given that, you shouldn't feel sorry for anyone who has had the opportunity to lead their life according to their own principles. And that is all "feminists" want, the ability for women/all people to be considered equal, responsible agents.
- J-dawg 8y ago
  This is very incisive comment. Indeed the woman in the article has had the opportunity to live her life according to her own agency, and it’s perhaps condescending of me to feel sorry for her. But on the other hand, I still think it’s ok to feel pity for someone who has been misled by a social movement that claimed to have all the answers, when it really didn’t. And most importantly, we should be free to criticise that social movement and point out its shortcomings.
  - kelnos 8y ago
    I think the heart of the issue is that feminism promotes what the end state should be. If you're a woman and try to live your life as if feminism has already "won", then you're going to encounter some setbacks. Hopefully there will be a day when men and women actually are considered socially, legally, economically, etc. equal, but we're not there yet.
csomar 8y ago
Not only feminism. The media, the government, capitalism and globalism. Everyone is selling lies. It is how it works: You should not believe what they tell you. Probably doesn't work in your advantage either. Think about it like the stock market: Would you buy a stock that it is being pumped by the media. Maybe yes, maybe not. But if someone is profiting it is probably not you.
radiator 8y ago
It is so true. A woman thinking about her declining fertility for the first time in the age of 35? This only happens in modern western countries, where feminism has convinced women: "do not marry early", "explore your feelings", "meet new people", "have a career", "children and family oppress you" and so on. Of course, such things were unheard of some decades ago, and still are in many parts of the world, where women start a family routinely at 20 and it is not unheard of that some women are already grandmothers at the age of 35. I am sorry, but of course there is no hope of a normal family for a woman of this age. Her fate has already been sealed by feminism. Life is tough. The question is, what happens with the next generation.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > I am sorry, but of course there is no hope of a normal family for a woman of this age. Eh. While we married much younger, my wife and I had our two kids when she was 38 and 40, and we have age peers who found life partners around or after 35. Unless you are involving a simple tautology by defining “normal family” to be one started before leaving the 20s or something like that, you are just dead wrong.
  - greycol 8y ago
    Exactly, while the ease and likelihood of "having it all" are likely oversold, and an argument for ensuring that kids realize that adults don't get a trophy just for showing up is worth having, pretending that people can't start a family in there 30s from no current relationship (especially if they're willing to make it a focus) is ridiculous.
    - J-dawg 8y ago
      I agree that radiator is wrong to say “no hope”. You’d only need to find one example of a couple who met and had kids after 35 to disprove that, and I’m sure there are plenty. But I think both you and the parent commenter are deliberately missing the point. The amount of “hope” is severely diminished, and it gets smaller every day. The woman is faced with the task of finding a guy who wants kids as much (and as quickly) as she does, without the chance to first bond and grow together in a relaxed and unhurried relationship. She’ll have to reassure him that no, she isn’t settling just because she wants a baby, even though the same thought sometimes crosses her mind. Plus she’s broke, so this guy will have to love her enough to make a considerable financial sacrifice and then continue to support her through motherhood. (NB this applies whether or not they stay together). So sure, there’s hope, but you’re being disingenuous if you pretend that there’s a lot of it.

by J-dawg 8y ago

watwut 8y ago

Because it makes for the situation where women is comitted to familly and husband seeing her as nagging wife preventing him to do more fun things then boring familly. And she is nagging in truth, because it is not that great as single people without children imagine. It makes for moms who are criticized for living through children and damaging them that way and kids are supposed to leave anyway. Kids are not supposed to stay to make company to parents anymore.

danbolt 8y ago

I'm a little confused when you say that feminism "has sold a massive lie to women". Feminism as a topic seems really large to me, and I'm not sure what about it you mean when you say that a big lie has been told. Would you be able to clarify?

Mizza 8y ago
I think it's less a problem with feminism and more a problem with the corporate misappropriation of feminist attitudes - so, rather than worrying about actually supporting women (paid time off/maternity leave/onsite daycare, etc), society sells women the idea that they can "have it all" - a family while also being treated like men in the workplace (which, it turns out, means being disposable pawns for the capitalist machine). The "Lean In" phenomenon and the mandating of % of women on corporate boards are good examples of this.
J-dawg 8y ago
Sure. I used the word ‘feminism’ for brevity, and because I wasn’t really sure what else to call it. I’ll try to summarise what I mean. Women used to be under great pressure (cultural, religious, family) to find a good man and settle down. They were also shamed for promiscuity. In the western world, we’ve largely got rid of all this pressure and shame (thank goodness) but the fact remains that women face a very different biological reality to men. Most of them have a powerful urge to be a mother, and a limited window in which to do it. Anonymous city living, dating apps and the removal of shame associated with promiscuity have made it extremely easy for a young woman to enjoy being a “25 year old sexpot” (her description, not mine). Male attention is plentiful, and as a result there’s no reason to hang on to a particular man, why not keep looking and see what else is out there? Ask any younger guy who has been on the dating scene recently - 20-something women are increasingly flaky and unwilling to commit to anything. I don’t begrudge women any of this, but the big lie I mentioned is the idea that a woman can just switch into “long term partner mode” when she decides the time is right. Building a relationship stable enough to have kids in takes years, and a man (generally speaking) doesn’t want to feel like he’s been chosen just as a sperm donor. Guys who want to commit, want to commit to a 25 year old sexpot. And the ‘alpha’ guys who will never commit can always find another 25 year old sexpot. This is what I meant by the big lie. I’m not trying to say it’s all terrible or that society is going to hell, but it has backfired on the women who don’t recognise it.
- danbolt 8y ago
  Thanks for taking the time to clarify what you meant. I think I can see what you mean about how you don't really have a word to describe the picture you're painting. I don't know if I agree with you about the idea that women want children more than men do as a matter of biology. Speaking "as a younger guy who has been on the dating scene recently" (your description, not mine), women seem really varied to me in terms of what they want. Some hate the thought of having children and wish other women would stop talking about them. Others tell me being a parent is something they've always wanted. I've known plenty of 20-something women that don't really care for children, but their long-term 20-something male partners vehemently do. I say this as someone partaking in anonymous city living in a "liberal" west-coast environment. I think women's attitudes on children are actually pretty varied, and the shadow of how we used to expect them to act/live still lingers over the twenty-first century. Philosophers like Butler[1] often propose that we're treated as a child specific ways due to our sex, and we internalize it and kind of have this self-reinforcing culture. I think this plays a lot into our assumptions about women's attitudes, and how we treat them in turn, and they respond in turn. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_gender#Applications_of_gender_performance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_gender#...

bad_user 8y ago

This is true for men as well. Me and my wife have an 8 year old son, however I'm 36 years old and right now I don't feel like I'm capable of having another child. Our son is a premature baby, born at 30 weeks, after what was a very troubled pregnancy. And then when he was one year old he suffered from Lyell's syndrome. Plus he's always been more sensitive to catching cold, etc. Now at 8 years old he's a healthy, good looking boy, does well in school, etc and I tell you, it's a miracle that he turned out as well as he did. We were also fortunate to live with my mother in law. It's great to have one of your parents around. She babysits for us, she cooks for us, etc. Other people aren't as fortunate. Being a parent is freaking hard sometimes. Being a parent is also the only thing that I'll never regret, possibly the best thing we ever did in our life. But you need the energy of your twenties to do it. The sooner you do it, the better. Even if you're a man.

J-dawg 8y ago
It’s not true for men to anything like the same extent. I totally understand why you don’t have the energy for another kid. We’re the same age and I don’t think I’ve got the energy for one kid. But the fact remains that biologically you could have another kid now or in 10, perhaps even 20 years. For a woman that’s a virtual impossibility. You can’t pretend it’s the same thing.
duderific 8y ago
I'm a man, and I had my first kid at 45, just had my second at 49. I didn't plan for it to be this way; my wife is 10 years younger than me, and she wasn't ready to have kids until she was in her mid 30's. I do sometimes wish I'd been able to have kids sooner; I'll be pretty old by the time my kids go off to college, and I'll be very old if/when I ever see any grandchildren. However, I'd like to say, don't not have kids just because you may be a bit older than average. I'm pretty able to handle it so far, despite the lack of sleep and stress that goes along with having kids. It's such an incredible experience and greatly enriches one's life.

rayiner 8y ago

I wouldn't call it feminism, but the lingering effects of the sexual revolution, which was dominated heavily by male interest. (Read Dworkin's "Right Wing Women." TLDR version, the sexual revolution was heavily influenced by male desire to make women more sexually available: https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Andrea-DWORKIN-Right-Wing-Women-The-Politics-of-Domesticated-Females-19831.pdf https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010... (pp. 94-95)) Iliza Shlesinger has a great point about this in one of her routines. > You’ve also been holding in… your intentions. We have this really nasty habit in our society of labeling women very cruel and unfair things when they express their desire for very normal things. Monogamy, exclusivity, a relationship, a family, babies. Right? We like to call them desperate, sad, psychos, baby crazy. “We’ve been married for six years. She already wants a kid! I’m a fuck man! They can’t get me.” It’s very normal to want these things. https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2018/07/30/iliza-shlesinger-elder-millennial-2018-full-transcript/ https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2018/07/30/iliza-shlesinger-el...

notyourday 8y ago
Or you could read Dawkins' "Selfish Gene" and or if you want something lighter Matt Ridley's "The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature" to have it debunked.
- rayiner 8y ago
  Have what debunked?
  - notyourday 8y ago
    > I wouldn't call it feminism, but the lingering effects of the sexual revolution, which was dominated heavily by male interest. (Read Dworkin's "Right Wing Women." TLDR version, the sexual revolution was heavily influenced by male desire to make women more sexually available: https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010.. https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010.... (pp. 94-95)) Iliza Shlesinger has a great point about this in one of her routines. That.

ashika 8y ago

As other posters mention, no path in life is guaranteed to be fulfilling for all individuals. Given that, you shouldn't feel sorry for anyone who has had the opportunity to lead their life according to their own principles. And that is all "feminists" want, the ability for women/all people to be considered equal, responsible agents.

J-dawg 8y ago
This is very incisive comment. Indeed the woman in the article has had the opportunity to live her life according to her own agency, and it’s perhaps condescending of me to feel sorry for her. But on the other hand, I still think it’s ok to feel pity for someone who has been misled by a social movement that claimed to have all the answers, when it really didn’t. And most importantly, we should be free to criticise that social movement and point out its shortcomings.
- kelnos 8y ago
  I think the heart of the issue is that feminism promotes what the end state should be. If you're a woman and try to live your life as if feminism has already "won", then you're going to encounter some setbacks. Hopefully there will be a day when men and women actually are considered socially, legally, economically, etc. equal, but we're not there yet.

csomar 8y ago

Not only feminism. The media, the government, capitalism and globalism. Everyone is selling lies. It is how it works: You should not believe what they tell you. Probably doesn't work in your advantage either. Think about it like the stock market: Would you buy a stock that it is being pumped by the media. Maybe yes, maybe not. But if someone is profiting it is probably not you.

radiator 8y ago

It is so true. A woman thinking about her declining fertility for the first time in the age of 35? This only happens in modern western countries, where feminism has convinced women: "do not marry early", "explore your feelings", "meet new people", "have a career", "children and family oppress you" and so on. Of course, such things were unheard of some decades ago, and still are in many parts of the world, where women start a family routinely at 20 and it is not unheard of that some women are already grandmothers at the age of 35. I am sorry, but of course there is no hope of a normal family for a woman of this age. Her fate has already been sealed by feminism. Life is tough. The question is, what happens with the next generation.

dragonwriter 8y ago
> I am sorry, but of course there is no hope of a normal family for a woman of this age. Eh. While we married much younger, my wife and I had our two kids when she was 38 and 40, and we have age peers who found life partners around or after 35. Unless you are involving a simple tautology by defining “normal family” to be one started before leaving the 20s or something like that, you are just dead wrong.
- greycol 8y ago
  Exactly, while the ease and likelihood of "having it all" are likely oversold, and an argument for ensuring that kids realize that adults don't get a trophy just for showing up is worth having, pretending that people can't start a family in there 30s from no current relationship (especially if they're willing to make it a focus) is ridiculous.
  - J-dawg 8y ago
    I agree that radiator is wrong to say “no hope”. You’d only need to find one example of a couple who met and had kids after 35 to disprove that, and I’m sure there are plenty. But I think both you and the parent commenter are deliberately missing the point. The amount of “hope” is severely diminished, and it gets smaller every day. The woman is faced with the task of finding a guy who wants kids as much (and as quickly) as she does, without the chance to first bond and grow together in a relaxed and unhurried relationship. She’ll have to reassure him that no, she isn’t settling just because she wants a baby, even though the same thought sometimes crosses her mind. Plus she’s broke, so this guy will have to love her enough to make a considerable financial sacrifice and then continue to support her through motherhood. (NB this applies whether or not they stay together). So sure, there’s hope, but you’re being disingenuous if you pretend that there’s a lot of it.