6 ms·

I'll be very sad if this goes the way of Perl 6

bradfitz 8y ago
It won't. It's an explicit requirement that it will not. Or even a Python 3. I had a slide saying as such in an earlier presentation: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1DmyTABhGLvN0m2uHktvkP_uXop6-Xy5HPNovjDKJ83g/edit#slide=id.g3140eee711_0_877 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1DmyTABhGLvN0m2uHktvk... (slide 140) Ian had a good talk & doc about this too recently: https://github.com/golang/proposal/blob/master/design/28221-go2-transitions.md https://github.com/golang/proposal/blob/master/design/28221-... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqKOY_pH8u0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqKOY_pH8u0
- dunpeal 8y ago
  How can you have an "explicit requirement" not to end up like Perl 6? Nobody planned to "end up like Perl 6", it's just something that happens when your new, backwards-incompatible version of the language doesn't catch on. Also, sounds like Go 2 is going to make backwards-incompatible language changes. How is that different from Python 3, or even Perl 6?
  - bradfitz 8y ago
    Perl 6 decided from the beginning to break away from Perl 5 and not care about backwards compat. That was their choice. We don't make the same choice.
    - dunpeal 8y ago
      But Go 2 is also introducing backwards incompatible changes, no?
      - bradfitz 8y ago
        See the doc I linked above: https://github.com/golang/proposal/blob/master/design/28221-go2-transitions.md https://github.com/golang/proposal/blob/master/design/28221-... Probably not. We can add things and we can opt-in remove things (e.g. user says they want v1.14 of language gets them new language features and removes some language features), but we can't change the semantics of existing programs. That is, if a program compiles with two different language versions, that program should mean the same in both versions.
mikepurvis 8y ago
At least Perl 6 is DOA and there's little confusion about it. The fiasco that was Python 3 was much worse for how drawn out it was.
- simias 8y ago
  By the time the confusion about Perl 6 being DOA subsided (which still hasn't happened for some enthusiasts) Perl 5 was seriously damaged and it never recovered since. Python 3 took a lot of time to take over but it seems that they're finally leaving Python 2 behind and the language is still extremely popular.
mempko 8y ago
Perl6 is amazing! Yes it took a while. Yes it doesn't have the same recognition as perl 5. Yes it's crazy. But it's crazy in fun sort of way.
- simias 8y ago
  So are chicken scheme and GNU Forth. The problem is that the Perl ecosystem and community are a shadow of what they used to be in the heydays of Perl 5. I used to write a lot of Perl but I wouldn't really recommend it to anybody these days, be it version 5 or 6.
  - wwweston 8y ago
    "Shadow of what they used to be" is a nice gig if you can get it when the "used to" part was basically the scripting language. Perl is still in top 20 programming language lists. That's arguably "below the fold" of search results, but hey, so are Lua and Haskell. The Perl Community... I don't know exactly what you mean. I might believe that size in terms of active work on a growing number of modules has dropped; but I don't believe the quality of participation has. Even though I haven't written a line of production Perl in well over a decade I still like checking in every so often to see what they're talking about. And for those for whom all you know about Perl 6 is its delayed arrival and related woes, I can guarantee there's more interesting things to be seen.
meddlepal 8y ago
Honestly that would be great if it took the momentum out of Go and killed the language. I loathe working in Go.
- AsyncAwait 8y ago
  Then don't, but actively wanting to see something gone that other enjoy is beyond tasteless.
  - meddlepal 8y ago
    I would love to completely avoid it, and I do when I can, but it has started to creep into every job out there now and especially in areas I spend a lot of time. So just avoiding it is not possible. I maintain it has been shoved down the industries throat for no good reason other than Google. It does nothing better than any of the existing mainstream languages and in many cases is a large step backwards. So no, I will not stop railing on Go and my hope it goes away sooner rather than later. Nor will I stop railing on how I think macOS is a cancer in the Unix ecosystem and also needs to die, how JavaScript deserves to be relegated to the trash heap, how Android has fucked the Java-ecosystem, and how Chrome has ruined the internet.
    - kbd 8y ago
      > It does nothing better than any of the existing mainstream languages... Why say this? Even if you don't like Go it's objectively false. What languages are you comparing it to, Java? C++?
      - meddlepal 8y ago
        Java and Python. It's two closest peers. Go does not compete with C or C++ in my mind because of GC. The ONLY thing it does better is packaging because of its standalone native binaries. But most folks using Go are writing software for servers and those are predominantly Linux x86_64... so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It won't. It's an explicit requirement that it will not. Or even a Python 3. I had a slide saying as such in an earlier presentation: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1DmyTABhGLvN0m2uHktvkP_uXop6-Xy5HPNovjDKJ83g/edit#slide=id.g3140eee711_0_877 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1DmyTABhGLvN0m2uHktvk... (slide 140) Ian had a good talk & doc about this too recently: https://github.com/golang/proposal/blob/master/design/28221-go2-transitions.md https://github.com/golang/proposal/blob/master/design/28221-... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqKOY_pH8u0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqKOY_pH8u0

dunpeal 8y ago
How can you have an "explicit requirement" not to end up like Perl 6? Nobody planned to "end up like Perl 6", it's just something that happens when your new, backwards-incompatible version of the language doesn't catch on. Also, sounds like Go 2 is going to make backwards-incompatible language changes. How is that different from Python 3, or even Perl 6?
- bradfitz 8y ago
  Perl 6 decided from the beginning to break away from Perl 5 and not care about backwards compat. That was their choice. We don't make the same choice.
  - dunpeal 8y ago
    But Go 2 is also introducing backwards incompatible changes, no?
    - bradfitz 8y ago
      See the doc I linked above: https://github.com/golang/proposal/blob/master/design/28221-go2-transitions.md https://github.com/golang/proposal/blob/master/design/28221-... Probably not. We can add things and we can opt-in remove things (e.g. user says they want v1.14 of language gets them new language features and removes some language features), but we can't change the semantics of existing programs. That is, if a program compiles with two different language versions, that program should mean the same in both versions.

mikepurvis 8y ago

At least Perl 6 is DOA and there's little confusion about it. The fiasco that was Python 3 was much worse for how drawn out it was.

simias 8y ago
By the time the confusion about Perl 6 being DOA subsided (which still hasn't happened for some enthusiasts) Perl 5 was seriously damaged and it never recovered since. Python 3 took a lot of time to take over but it seems that they're finally leaving Python 2 behind and the language is still extremely popular.

mempko 8y ago

Perl6 is amazing! Yes it took a while. Yes it doesn't have the same recognition as perl 5. Yes it's crazy. But it's crazy in fun sort of way.

simias 8y ago
So are chicken scheme and GNU Forth. The problem is that the Perl ecosystem and community are a shadow of what they used to be in the heydays of Perl 5. I used to write a lot of Perl but I wouldn't really recommend it to anybody these days, be it version 5 or 6.
- wwweston 8y ago
  "Shadow of what they used to be" is a nice gig if you can get it when the "used to" part was basically the scripting language. Perl is still in top 20 programming language lists. That's arguably "below the fold" of search results, but hey, so are Lua and Haskell. The Perl Community... I don't know exactly what you mean. I might believe that size in terms of active work on a growing number of modules has dropped; but I don't believe the quality of participation has. Even though I haven't written a line of production Perl in well over a decade I still like checking in every so often to see what they're talking about. And for those for whom all you know about Perl 6 is its delayed arrival and related woes, I can guarantee there's more interesting things to be seen.

meddlepal 8y ago

Honestly that would be great if it took the momentum out of Go and killed the language. I loathe working in Go.

AsyncAwait 8y ago
Then don't, but actively wanting to see something gone that other enjoy is beyond tasteless.
- meddlepal 8y ago
  I would love to completely avoid it, and I do when I can, but it has started to creep into every job out there now and especially in areas I spend a lot of time. So just avoiding it is not possible. I maintain it has been shoved down the industries throat for no good reason other than Google. It does nothing better than any of the existing mainstream languages and in many cases is a large step backwards. So no, I will not stop railing on Go and my hope it goes away sooner rather than later. Nor will I stop railing on how I think macOS is a cancer in the Unix ecosystem and also needs to die, how JavaScript deserves to be relegated to the trash heap, how Android has fucked the Java-ecosystem, and how Chrome has ruined the internet.
  - kbd 8y ago
    > It does nothing better than any of the existing mainstream languages... Why say this? Even if you don't like Go it's objectively false. What languages are you comparing it to, Java? C++?
    - meddlepal 8y ago
      Java and Python. It's two closest peers. Go does not compete with C or C++ in my mind because of GC. The ONLY thing it does better is packaging because of its standalone native binaries. But most folks using Go are writing software for servers and those are predominantly Linux x86_64... so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯