3 ms·

Sure, it’s a matter of degree. PHP has many worse degrees than the things ‘wrong’ with Python or Ruby. Nobody said a language has to be perfect, just better. Of

Sure, it’s a matter of degree. PHP has many worse degrees than the things ‘wrong’ with Python or Ruby. Nobody said a language has to be perfect, just better. Of course other languages have flaws, but Python and Ruby have fewer and less serious flaws. It’s like if I said hey, we should live somewhere besides Moldova. And you said but don’t Germany and France have flaws too? As far as what they should do, yes, they should fix all of these problems. The thing is many would break huge amounts of old code and cause problems for people and harm upgrade adoption. Also, PHP developers, as seen, actually insist on things like ‘=> is better than : because it’s the PHP Way’. I’m not going to waste time trying to persuade the heathens behind PHP to turn it into a normal language. Why would I? My opinion is that PHP is a fundamentally braindead language. It’s like someone tried to make a quick and dirty scripting language with C syntax and then changed it over into a crappy version of Java with the help of a bunch of incompetent college students over 10 years for an audience of amateur programmers, which actually is exactly what happened. I have no desire to use it for anything, ever.

Vanderson 8y ago
Your argument reminds me of a debate I ran into about using pocket hole jigs. The experts would make hand carved mortis and tenon joints and consistently attacked and ridiculed pocket hole jigs. And said no professional would ever use pocket hole jigs. Ikea does a lot of business and I wish they'd use pocket holes on their furniture instead of some of the ghastly connectors that fall apart. Getting things done and running a business are primary goals of software... There was a time when mysql was ridiculed mercilessly as well.
- code_duck 8y ago
  You’re right about some aspects and I am about others. PHP is good for certain projects. MySQL works well for some cases. However many experienced people prefer other tools for good reasons. Personally I grew weary of having this conversation about PHP and MySQL about 9 years ago (you’re aware of this long history, right? This is like talking about the reasons for the civil war). Nobody needs to point out that WordPress is build on PHP, or that Flickr used it, or god forbid Facebook. The strengths and benefits relative to other software has been debated to death in blogs, articles, forums, and mailing lists for a decade at least. I doubt we can break new ground here. Haven’t visited your website but I visited your profile. I’m assuming that you are writing a CMS in PHP?
  - Vanderson 8y ago
    I generally agree there's probably no point in discussing this without an end game. So here's one: Do you believe that python/ruby/go/node.js/etc.. can replace php and do a better job? I haven't heard a recent apples to apples comparison, and the ones from the past have faded in relevance because of improvements made in php. I suspect that is because there are business reasons php runs circles around other solutions, and that technical superiority doesn't mean financially superior. (how many key google products run on javascript?) If php is going to go away, it needs a jquery moment like this: http://vanilla-js.com/ http://vanilla-js.com/ I am actively gutting all jquery from all my projects because it truly needs to go away because something better came along to replace it. I haven't seen that with php yet and I have looked because I want my business to stay running and not fall behind because of a poor platform choice.
    - code_duck 8y ago
      Of course I believe that Python (etc) can replace PHP and do a better job. Isn’t that the entire topic? There’s no question in my mind whatsoever. I stopped using PHP in favor of Python in 2011 and would not consider reversing that under any circumstances. I’m quite experienced with both languages and PHP utterly lacks elegance. It’s not even close to something I’d consider using or supporting. Not sure what your perspective is based on. I mean, I’d never consider eating at McDonald’s under any circumstances whatsoever, but somehow they stay open and people appear to patronize their stores intentionally. So, tastes vary. If you like a bunch of dollar signs, semi colons, illogically arranged standard library, endless inconsistencies and poorly thought out syntax, don’t change a thing. Where is PHP popular? Or standard? I’m not even sure what you’re referring to. People still use PHP? Hmmm... https://www.codingdojo.com/blog/7-most-in-demand-programming-languages-of-2018/ https://www.codingdojo.com/blog/7-most-in-demand-programming... Okay, so it’s way behind Python, JavaScript, C# as far as common web programming languages. Beating Perl. Sounds about right for something as outdated as PHP. My recommendation to you is to hurry up and learn how to setup your web server for Python. https://hackernoon.com/top-3-most-popular-programming-languages-in-2018-and-their-annual-salaries-51b4a7354e06 https://hackernoon.com/top-3-most-popular-programming-langua... Here, Python is noted as surpassing PHP in popularity in 2017. I guess that was the stack overflow survey. This is based on searching for 1 minute.
kyriakos 8y ago
=> vs : is probably the least important thing you could come up with when comparing two languages. Yeah the syntax is different, so? It's a different language, not all have to use the syntax you are used to.
- Vanderson 8y ago
  That is exactly my point, the "worst" thing I deal with with php is mild annoyance.

Vanderson 8y ago

Your argument reminds me of a debate I ran into about using pocket hole jigs. The experts would make hand carved mortis and tenon joints and consistently attacked and ridiculed pocket hole jigs. And said no professional would ever use pocket hole jigs. Ikea does a lot of business and I wish they'd use pocket holes on their furniture instead of some of the ghastly connectors that fall apart. Getting things done and running a business are primary goals of software... There was a time when mysql was ridiculed mercilessly as well.

code_duck 8y ago
You’re right about some aspects and I am about others. PHP is good for certain projects. MySQL works well for some cases. However many experienced people prefer other tools for good reasons. Personally I grew weary of having this conversation about PHP and MySQL about 9 years ago (you’re aware of this long history, right? This is like talking about the reasons for the civil war). Nobody needs to point out that WordPress is build on PHP, or that Flickr used it, or god forbid Facebook. The strengths and benefits relative to other software has been debated to death in blogs, articles, forums, and mailing lists for a decade at least. I doubt we can break new ground here. Haven’t visited your website but I visited your profile. I’m assuming that you are writing a CMS in PHP?
- Vanderson 8y ago
  I generally agree there's probably no point in discussing this without an end game. So here's one: Do you believe that python/ruby/go/node.js/etc.. can replace php and do a better job? I haven't heard a recent apples to apples comparison, and the ones from the past have faded in relevance because of improvements made in php. I suspect that is because there are business reasons php runs circles around other solutions, and that technical superiority doesn't mean financially superior. (how many key google products run on javascript?) If php is going to go away, it needs a jquery moment like this: http://vanilla-js.com/ http://vanilla-js.com/ I am actively gutting all jquery from all my projects because it truly needs to go away because something better came along to replace it. I haven't seen that with php yet and I have looked because I want my business to stay running and not fall behind because of a poor platform choice.
  - code_duck 8y ago
    Of course I believe that Python (etc) can replace PHP and do a better job. Isn’t that the entire topic? There’s no question in my mind whatsoever. I stopped using PHP in favor of Python in 2011 and would not consider reversing that under any circumstances. I’m quite experienced with both languages and PHP utterly lacks elegance. It’s not even close to something I’d consider using or supporting. Not sure what your perspective is based on. I mean, I’d never consider eating at McDonald’s under any circumstances whatsoever, but somehow they stay open and people appear to patronize their stores intentionally. So, tastes vary. If you like a bunch of dollar signs, semi colons, illogically arranged standard library, endless inconsistencies and poorly thought out syntax, don’t change a thing. Where is PHP popular? Or standard? I’m not even sure what you’re referring to. People still use PHP? Hmmm... https://www.codingdojo.com/blog/7-most-in-demand-programming-languages-of-2018/ https://www.codingdojo.com/blog/7-most-in-demand-programming... Okay, so it’s way behind Python, JavaScript, C# as far as common web programming languages. Beating Perl. Sounds about right for something as outdated as PHP. My recommendation to you is to hurry up and learn how to setup your web server for Python. https://hackernoon.com/top-3-most-popular-programming-languages-in-2018-and-their-annual-salaries-51b4a7354e06 https://hackernoon.com/top-3-most-popular-programming-langua... Here, Python is noted as surpassing PHP in popularity in 2017. I guess that was the stack overflow survey. This is based on searching for 1 minute.

kyriakos 8y ago

=> vs : is probably the least important thing you could come up with when comparing two languages. Yeah the syntax is different, so? It's a different language, not all have to use the syntax you are used to.

Vanderson 8y ago
That is exactly my point, the "worst" thing I deal with with php is mild annoyance.