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It’s true that deployment is more difficult on Python. Comparing R to PHP seems kind of inappropriate since what they are appropriate for rarely overlaps. I wo

It’s true that deployment is more difficult on Python. Comparing R to PHP seems kind of inappropriate since what they are appropriate for rarely overlaps. I wouldn’t use PHP for statistics and I sure wouldn’t use R for a website. As far as whether other languages could have similar criticism, no. This is an analysis of sloppy design at the core of PHP. The types of problems listed aren’t found in Python or Ruby because they planned the language better in the first place and have a better process for dealing with intelligent changes. It’s maddening for me to read what PHP developers think about changes to the language. If you want to use PHP, go ahead, but I don’t think that’s the point of this article.

Vanderson 8y ago
>This is an analysis of sloppy design at the core of PHP. I understand this, but the source or reason for the "bad list" doesn't change the fact that every language has something off. (just a matter of degrees) Also, php did something so right that even despite all the ugliness and problems it's used a lot. I think php should suck it up and make a branch to fix all of these things and let people slowly change their apps over. I have gone through a lot of rework over the years, what's one more change for better future?
- code_duck 8y ago
  Sure, it’s a matter of degree. PHP has many worse degrees than the things ‘wrong’ with Python or Ruby. Nobody said a language has to be perfect, just better. Of course other languages have flaws, but Python and Ruby have fewer and less serious flaws. It’s like if I said hey, we should live somewhere besides Moldova. And you said but don’t Germany and France have flaws too? As far as what they should do, yes, they should fix all of these problems. The thing is many would break huge amounts of old code and cause problems for people and harm upgrade adoption. Also, PHP developers, as seen, actually insist on things like ‘=> is better than : because it’s the PHP Way’. I’m not going to waste time trying to persuade the heathens behind PHP to turn it into a normal language. Why would I? My opinion is that PHP is a fundamentally braindead language. It’s like someone tried to make a quick and dirty scripting language with C syntax and then changed it over into a crappy version of Java with the help of a bunch of incompetent college students over 10 years for an audience of amateur programmers, which actually is exactly what happened. I have no desire to use it for anything, ever.
  - Vanderson 8y ago
    Your argument reminds me of a debate I ran into about using pocket hole jigs. The experts would make hand carved mortis and tenon joints and consistently attacked and ridiculed pocket hole jigs. And said no professional would ever use pocket hole jigs. Ikea does a lot of business and I wish they'd use pocket holes on their furniture instead of some of the ghastly connectors that fall apart. Getting things done and running a business are primary goals of software... There was a time when mysql was ridiculed mercilessly as well.
    - code_duck 8y ago
      You’re right about some aspects and I am about others. PHP is good for certain projects. MySQL works well for some cases. However many experienced people prefer other tools for good reasons. Personally I grew weary of having this conversation about PHP and MySQL about 9 years ago (you’re aware of this long history, right? This is like talking about the reasons for the civil war). Nobody needs to point out that WordPress is build on PHP, or that Flickr used it, or god forbid Facebook. The strengths and benefits relative to other software has been debated to death in blogs, articles, forums, and mailing lists for a decade at least. I doubt we can break new ground here. Haven’t visited your website but I visited your profile. I’m assuming that you are writing a CMS in PHP?
      - Vanderson 8y ago
        I generally agree there's probably no point in discussing this without an end game. So here's one: Do you believe that python/ruby/go/node.js/etc.. can replace php and do a better job? I haven't heard a recent apples to apples comparison, and the ones from the past have faded in relevance because of improvements made in php. I suspect that is because there are business reasons php runs circles around other solutions, and that technical superiority doesn't mean financially superior. (how many key google products run on javascript?) If php is going to go away, it needs a jquery moment like this: http://vanilla-js.com/ http://vanilla-js.com/ I am actively gutting all jquery from all my projects because it truly needs to go away because something better came along to replace it. I haven't seen that with php yet and I have looked because I want my business to stay running and not fall behind because of a poor platform choice.

Vanderson 8y ago

>This is an analysis of sloppy design at the core of PHP. I understand this, but the source or reason for the "bad list" doesn't change the fact that every language has something off. (just a matter of degrees) Also, php did something so right that even despite all the ugliness and problems it's used a lot. I think php should suck it up and make a branch to fix all of these things and let people slowly change their apps over. I have gone through a lot of rework over the years, what's one more change for better future?

code_duck 8y ago
Sure, it’s a matter of degree. PHP has many worse degrees than the things ‘wrong’ with Python or Ruby. Nobody said a language has to be perfect, just better. Of course other languages have flaws, but Python and Ruby have fewer and less serious flaws. It’s like if I said hey, we should live somewhere besides Moldova. And you said but don’t Germany and France have flaws too? As far as what they should do, yes, they should fix all of these problems. The thing is many would break huge amounts of old code and cause problems for people and harm upgrade adoption. Also, PHP developers, as seen, actually insist on things like ‘=> is better than : because it’s the PHP Way’. I’m not going to waste time trying to persuade the heathens behind PHP to turn it into a normal language. Why would I? My opinion is that PHP is a fundamentally braindead language. It’s like someone tried to make a quick and dirty scripting language with C syntax and then changed it over into a crappy version of Java with the help of a bunch of incompetent college students over 10 years for an audience of amateur programmers, which actually is exactly what happened. I have no desire to use it for anything, ever.
- Vanderson 8y ago
  Your argument reminds me of a debate I ran into about using pocket hole jigs. The experts would make hand carved mortis and tenon joints and consistently attacked and ridiculed pocket hole jigs. And said no professional would ever use pocket hole jigs. Ikea does a lot of business and I wish they'd use pocket holes on their furniture instead of some of the ghastly connectors that fall apart. Getting things done and running a business are primary goals of software... There was a time when mysql was ridiculed mercilessly as well.
  - code_duck 8y ago
    You’re right about some aspects and I am about others. PHP is good for certain projects. MySQL works well for some cases. However many experienced people prefer other tools for good reasons. Personally I grew weary of having this conversation about PHP and MySQL about 9 years ago (you’re aware of this long history, right? This is like talking about the reasons for the civil war). Nobody needs to point out that WordPress is build on PHP, or that Flickr used it, or god forbid Facebook. The strengths and benefits relative to other software has been debated to death in blogs, articles, forums, and mailing lists for a decade at least. I doubt we can break new ground here. Haven’t visited your website but I visited your profile. I’m assuming that you are writing a CMS in PHP?
    - Vanderson 8y ago
      I generally agree there's probably no point in discussing this without an end game. So here's one: Do you believe that python/ruby/go/node.js/etc.. can replace php and do a better job? I haven't heard a recent apples to apples comparison, and the ones from the past have faded in relevance because of improvements made in php. I suspect that is because there are business reasons php runs circles around other solutions, and that technical superiority doesn't mean financially superior. (how many key google products run on javascript?) If php is going to go away, it needs a jquery moment like this: http://vanilla-js.com/ http://vanilla-js.com/ I am actively gutting all jquery from all my projects because it truly needs to go away because something better came along to replace it. I haven't seen that with php yet and I have looked because I want my business to stay running and not fall behind because of a poor platform choice.