4 ms·

Also, if those drugs were legalized, their use might go up, thereby multiplying their negative impact on society. Actually, all available evidence points to th

by swombat 16y ago

Also, if those drugs were legalized, their use might go up, thereby multiplying their negative impact on society. Actually, all available evidence points to the fact that legalising drugs like heroin actually decreases their usage. Would you suddenly take up heroin if it was legal? Do you know anyone who would? This may be one of the scales you're looking for, btw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_t... Also, worth pointing out, with respect to "amount of usage", that drugs like Ecstasy see millions of users every weekend... and yet only a handful of deaths per year (generally involving multiple drugs and/or several-days-long binges). A pretty sterling safety record, I'd say.

lunchbox 16y ago
Actually, all available evidence points to the fact that legalising drugs like heroin actually decreases their usage. Would you suddenly take up heroin if it was legal? Do you know anyone who would? If marijuana were legal I might use it. Conversely, I don't think I know anyone who uses marijuana/heroin but would stop using it if it were legal. I haven't seen the evidence either way; I just made the point in my original post as something to consider.
- ljf 16y ago
  I /think/ the argument for legalisation lowering heroin use is that if it were legal, certain unscrupulous people would not be pushing it on fragile members of society, and getting them hooked for financial gain. If an addicted prostitute or other user could walk away from a pusher and life of crime and get the heroin on prescription (with an eye to coming off it in the long term), then the thought is that use and dealing would go down. (Why don't users now just go an get methadone/other substitute - I've read that is because they are pretty awful replacements). This is what has happened (to some extent) in Portugal: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.ht...
  - ahoyhere 16y ago
    Good point. Nobody ever considers the supply-side part of the equation except for drug-related crime.
  - gloob 16y ago
    I /think/ the argument for legalisation lowering heroin use is that if it were legal, certain unscrupulous people would not be pushing it on fragile members of society, and getting them hooked for financial gain. Replace "heroin" with "cigarettes" and you have a one-sentence description of tobacco companies. Legalizing it won't get rid of pushing, so long as pushing is financially beneficial for the pusher.
    - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
      Come on, making heroin "as legal as" tobacco is a straw man. Even the Netherlands, well-known for their liberal drug policy, have rather severe restrictions even on marijuana use.
    - ljf 16y ago
      Yes - if cigarettes were available on prescription, it would massively harm the abilities of cigarette companies to market and advertise (since profits would be hit rather hard!) which in turn would cut out a whole new tranche of smokers.
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    Not just that, but the teenage rebellion factor goes way down with legalization. I know quite a few people that stopped drinking so hard once they turned 21...
bmj 16y ago
Actually, all available evidence points to the fact that legalising drugs like heroin actually decreases their usage. Would you suddenly take up heroin if it was legal? Do you know anyone who would? But then why is alcohol and tobacco use so prevalent, since those substances are legal? Did the number of drinkers decrease in the U.S. after Prohibition was lifted? I also wonder if we would see the same sort of safety issues if, say, alcohol was banned but marijuana and cocaine were legalized (driving under the influence, violence--not with pot, I suppose)?
- Prisen 16y ago
  Hard liquors decreased and beer increased (hard liquors are easier to smuggle). There could be a similar correlation between heroin and lighter drugs.
  - bmj 16y ago
    Hard liquors are also easier to produce.
- kls 16y ago
  This is just my personal observation so take it for what it is worth, but as a former smoker. When I was a kid it seemed like everyone smoked, over time the stigma of being a smoker and the public awareness campaign has eroded that number. I finally quit when, at a party, I realized that I was the only person going outside to take smoke breaks.
rfrey 16y ago
Actually, all available evidence points to the fact that legalising drugs like heroin actually decreases their usage. Would you suddenly take up heroin if it was legal? Do you know anyone who would? I wouldn't use heroin if legal, but it's possible that the next generation, not being subject to mass anti-drug marketing campaigns, would use it in higher numbers. The question is whether that matters, and that's a debate that's hard to have in an environment of politically motivated and emotionally charged scare campaigns.
- viraptor 16y ago
  Legalising doesn't mean the end of anti-... campaigns. You can still see a lot of "don't drink too much" / "don't drink and drive" / "drinking kills families" kind of stuff, even though drinking is perfectly legal.
  - lutorm 16y ago
    Yes, but you also see plenty of ads about how cool it is to drink alcohol. Do you think legal heroin would be any different?
    - borism 16y ago
      Yes. I think nobody here argues that heroin should be legalized. But for lighter drugs legalization should clearly include ban on their advertisement (or, in fact, provision that tax revenue from their sale be spent on anti-advertisement)
      - jamesbritt 16y ago
        Heroin should be legalized. What I put in my body is my business.
        SoftwareMaven 16y ago
        Until you are breaking into somebody's house to get money to fund the addiction. Unfortunately, heroin is so addictive and so quick to build tolerance, that this is a very possible scenario. The ideal scenario involves legalizing much more research about the drug so we could find a way to "have our cake and eat it, too." I imagine there are some smart scientists who could find a way to create a non-addictive heroin-like substance. As an example, just adding a small bit of naltrexone (an opioid antagonist) to opioids seems to reduce the build up of tolerance. I can't find the company who is doing clinical trials on a drug combining the two right now, but you can see [1] for an overview of combining an antagonist with an opioid. [1] http://pain-topics.org/pdf/OpioidAntagonistsForPain.pdf http://pain-topics.org/pdf/OpioidAntagonistsForPain.pdf
zepolen 16y ago
Let me compare Tobacco and Heroin. I smoke, since I was young, it was silly, but I'd seen others do it and was offered cigarettes from a buddy and got hooked. Thinking about it, the only reason I would never try heroin now, is I've seen what it can do to people, from movies mostly (ironically ones that are not suitable for children to watch). If heroin was legal, I think kids who have no idea what the hell they're getting into would be the ones to be affected. So you're right, most adults wouldn't take up heroin if it suddenly became legal - but I bet a lot of kids would.
- Someone 16y ago
  only reason I would never try heroin now, is I've seen what it can do to people, from movies mostly Are you seen you have seen that? From what I read, part of the reason heroin addicts look the way they do is that they do not buy enough food because they use all their money on heroin; they use all their money on heroin because it is so expensive, and it is so expensive because it is illegal. Another reason is loss of appetite due to heroin addiction, but that certainly is not the only reason, and looking at programs where the government provides heroin to selected addicts, it does not appear to be the most important one.
  - zepolen 16y ago
    What scares me most is the withdrawal symptoms, nicotine made me appreciate the dangers of addiction.

by swombat 16y ago

lunchbox 16y ago

Actually, all available evidence points to the fact that legalising drugs like heroin actually decreases their usage. Would you suddenly take up heroin if it was legal? Do you know anyone who would? If marijuana were legal I might use it. Conversely, I don't think I know anyone who uses marijuana/heroin but would stop using it if it were legal. I haven't seen the evidence either way; I just made the point in my original post as something to consider.

ljf 16y ago
I /think/ the argument for legalisation lowering heroin use is that if it were legal, certain unscrupulous people would not be pushing it on fragile members of society, and getting them hooked for financial gain. If an addicted prostitute or other user could walk away from a pusher and life of crime and get the heroin on prescription (with an eye to coming off it in the long term), then the thought is that use and dealing would go down. (Why don't users now just go an get methadone/other substitute - I've read that is because they are pretty awful replacements). This is what has happened (to some extent) in Portugal: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.ht...
- ahoyhere 16y ago
  Good point. Nobody ever considers the supply-side part of the equation except for drug-related crime.
- gloob 16y ago
  I /think/ the argument for legalisation lowering heroin use is that if it were legal, certain unscrupulous people would not be pushing it on fragile members of society, and getting them hooked for financial gain. Replace "heroin" with "cigarettes" and you have a one-sentence description of tobacco companies. Legalizing it won't get rid of pushing, so long as pushing is financially beneficial for the pusher.
  - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
    Come on, making heroin "as legal as" tobacco is a straw man. Even the Netherlands, well-known for their liberal drug policy, have rather severe restrictions even on marijuana use.
  - ljf 16y ago
    Yes - if cigarettes were available on prescription, it would massively harm the abilities of cigarette companies to market and advertise (since profits would be hit rather hard!) which in turn would cut out a whole new tranche of smokers.
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  Not just that, but the teenage rebellion factor goes way down with legalization. I know quite a few people that stopped drinking so hard once they turned 21...

bmj 16y ago

Actually, all available evidence points to the fact that legalising drugs like heroin actually decreases their usage. Would you suddenly take up heroin if it was legal? Do you know anyone who would? But then why is alcohol and tobacco use so prevalent, since those substances are legal? Did the number of drinkers decrease in the U.S. after Prohibition was lifted? I also wonder if we would see the same sort of safety issues if, say, alcohol was banned but marijuana and cocaine were legalized (driving under the influence, violence--not with pot, I suppose)?

Prisen 16y ago
Hard liquors decreased and beer increased (hard liquors are easier to smuggle). There could be a similar correlation between heroin and lighter drugs.
- bmj 16y ago
  Hard liquors are also easier to produce.
kls 16y ago
This is just my personal observation so take it for what it is worth, but as a former smoker. When I was a kid it seemed like everyone smoked, over time the stigma of being a smoker and the public awareness campaign has eroded that number. I finally quit when, at a party, I realized that I was the only person going outside to take smoke breaks.

rfrey 16y ago

Actually, all available evidence points to the fact that legalising drugs like heroin actually decreases their usage. Would you suddenly take up heroin if it was legal? Do you know anyone who would? I wouldn't use heroin if legal, but it's possible that the next generation, not being subject to mass anti-drug marketing campaigns, would use it in higher numbers. The question is whether that matters, and that's a debate that's hard to have in an environment of politically motivated and emotionally charged scare campaigns.

viraptor 16y ago
Legalising doesn't mean the end of anti-... campaigns. You can still see a lot of "don't drink too much" / "don't drink and drive" / "drinking kills families" kind of stuff, even though drinking is perfectly legal.
- lutorm 16y ago
  Yes, but you also see plenty of ads about how cool it is to drink alcohol. Do you think legal heroin would be any different?
  - borism 16y ago
    Yes. I think nobody here argues that heroin should be legalized. But for lighter drugs legalization should clearly include ban on their advertisement (or, in fact, provision that tax revenue from their sale be spent on anti-advertisement)
    - jamesbritt 16y ago
      Heroin should be legalized. What I put in my body is my business.
      - SoftwareMaven 16y ago
        Until you are breaking into somebody's house to get money to fund the addiction. Unfortunately, heroin is so addictive and so quick to build tolerance, that this is a very possible scenario. The ideal scenario involves legalizing much more research about the drug so we could find a way to "have our cake and eat it, too." I imagine there are some smart scientists who could find a way to create a non-addictive heroin-like substance. As an example, just adding a small bit of naltrexone (an opioid antagonist) to opioids seems to reduce the build up of tolerance. I can't find the company who is doing clinical trials on a drug combining the two right now, but you can see [1] for an overview of combining an antagonist with an opioid. [1] http://pain-topics.org/pdf/OpioidAntagonistsForPain.pdf http://pain-topics.org/pdf/OpioidAntagonistsForPain.pdf

zepolen 16y ago

Let me compare Tobacco and Heroin. I smoke, since I was young, it was silly, but I'd seen others do it and was offered cigarettes from a buddy and got hooked. Thinking about it, the only reason I would never try heroin now, is I've seen what it can do to people, from movies mostly (ironically ones that are not suitable for children to watch). If heroin was legal, I think kids who have no idea what the hell they're getting into would be the ones to be affected. So you're right, most adults wouldn't take up heroin if it suddenly became legal - but I bet a lot of kids would.

Someone 16y ago
only reason I would never try heroin now, is I've seen what it can do to people, from movies mostly Are you seen you have seen that? From what I read, part of the reason heroin addicts look the way they do is that they do not buy enough food because they use all their money on heroin; they use all their money on heroin because it is so expensive, and it is so expensive because it is illegal. Another reason is loss of appetite due to heroin addiction, but that certainly is not the only reason, and looking at programs where the government provides heroin to selected addicts, it does not appear to be the most important one.
- zepolen 16y ago
  What scares me most is the withdrawal symptoms, nicotine made me appreciate the dangers of addiction.