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"Japan has strict immigration policies" is often repeated, but I don't think this is tells the whole story. Some of the policies are very permissive: * If you

"Japan has strict immigration policies" is often repeated, but I don't think this is tells the whole story. Some of the policies are very permissive: * If you graduated university and have a 'skilled' job in Japan, you are likely to get a visa. There is no cap on the number of these. There is no language requirement. * If you live in Japan for over 5 years continuously you can apply for citizenship, though you must renounce any other citizenships. * If you live in Japan for over 10 years you are eligible for permanent residency. * If you are married to a Japanese national you can do any kind of work and get permanent residency in 3 years. * If you have enough points on the highly skilled professional visa you can get permanent residency in 1 year. This is retroactive as long as you lived in Japan during that time, you don't even need to have had the highly skilled professional visa. So, is it really an issue of policy? I think the causes may lie elsewhere.

swombat 8y ago
Based on my experience visiting Japan and talking to both expats and expat-friendly locals there, I think the issue is more cultural than political. If you live in Japan but don't look Japanese you never really feel welcomed as a Japanese. Contrast that to countries like most of the West, where at least a solid proportion of people consider it socially unacceptable to discriminate socially based on someone's looks or origins...
- lovemenot 8y ago
  This feeling they experienced is of course subjective. Take it from a 20-year non-native Tokyo resident - it doesn't have to feel unwelcoming. Depends on the individual I guess. Admittedly, I've never lived in any of the out-of-the way places where most of these properties are located.
- jaredklewis 8y ago
  > Contrast that to countries like most of the West, where at least a solid proportion of people consider it socially unacceptable to discriminate socially based on someone's looks or origins.. Those things are also socially unacceptable in Japan. My experience is that the often discussed "micro-agressions" against foreigners happen about as often in Japan as they do in my own country (US, grew up in Texas). Of course, the only complaints that foreigners in Japan can make is about trivia. The US is so fucked up that we cannot seem to stop shooting unarmed black men, we're separating mothers from babies, and as of last week now tear gassing families at the border. So not sure if you are American, but many of the foreigners in Japan that complain of discrimination are, and I just want to say that I think it takes a lot of balls for an American in Japan to be like "hey, you guys can do a lot better with the discrimination thing." As horrifying as someone being impressed with your ability to use chopsticks is, it's not quite so horrifying as being literally shot for walking on the street. Many people in the US freeze up if a black person so much as walks by them on the street. And on the other side of the pacific? Ask a random stranger for directions; 9 times out of 10 they will stop whatever they are doing and walk with you to wherever you are going.
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    Using tear gas at the border is an American thing, not a Trump thing. https://www.businessinsider.com/border-patrol-also-used-tear-gas-pepper-spray-at-border-under-obama-2018-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/border-patrol-also-used-tear... > The use of tear gas at the border by CBP began in 2010. > Since fiscal year 2012, CBP has employed tear gas a total of 126 times, but its use hit a 7-year high under Trump in fiscal year 2018.
    - alsetmusic 8y ago
      > Using tear gas at the border is an American thing, not a Trump thing. No one above thread claimed any individual was responsible. The apologetics of inserting that statement is unnecessary. I do respect that you added citations.
  - Iamhisalt 8y ago
    Being asked if you can use chopsticks for the 10,000 time is a living hell.
  - philliphaydon 8y ago
    It must be hard working on the border when people bring children that are not their own to fast tack their way through into the country. Or when families lie about their child’s age to loophole the system. But it’s easier for us to focus on the separation rather than the reason the separation exists to begin with. And let’s not forget tear gas being used for crowds of people throwing stones at border patrol. No lets focus on tear gas issue and less of the people doing their job being assulted.
    - crc32 8y ago
      > people bring children that are not their own to fast tack their way through into the country. Or when families lie about their child’s age to loophole the system. Completely citation & evidence free assertions - smells like slander to me.
      - 8y ago
- Down_n_Out 8y ago
  > If you live in Japan but don't look Japanese you never really feel welcomed as a Japanese. That goes for a lot of countries, especially if your skin color is different as well as your accent, language and whatnot. Heck, even when you are born in a country where you are not the same skin color as the majority you can feel not welcome. So, it's kind of a generalization to say that only about Japan.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  "you never really feel welcomed as a Japanese." Well, maybe because you're not Japanese? A different question is: "Would you feel welcome" I would consider it weirdly arrogant to go to Japan and then have them ever accept me as 'Japanese'. I would hope that thy are respectful to me, and treat me well, and maybe even 'as a Japanese' but not actually 'Japanese', because - I'm not! There's a big difference I think between 'rights' and 'cultural attribution', we mix them up a lot in the West.
  - Nadya 8y ago
    You misunderstood. You need to look Japanese. It doesn't matter if you actually are Japanese. This video pokes some fun at it, taken to an extreme for comedic purpose of course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      I understood well enough. You're assuming that those White/Black people were Japanese because they were born and raised Japanese. From a certain perspective, that would not be correct. Many people (most of the world) view race as fundamentally intertwined with ethnicity, ergo, the white folks in the video may never really be considered 'fully Japanese', although surely they are mostly accommodated as such. 'American' really isn't an ethnicity so 'new world' people often have difficulty grasping how others might view ethnicity. As longs as people are treated reasonably, frankly, I don't care.
wokwokwok 8y ago
This is misrepresentative. You can apply, but actually getting both permanent residency and citizenship isn’t nearly that trivial. “Working in japan” and “becoming Japanese” are different things, and the latter is very much more difficult. Japan is very happy to have foreign workers who will politely leave once they lose their jobs / get old, but the immigration figures, in absolute terms, are tiny.
- jac_no_k 8y ago
  /me is a US citizen with a PR (permanent residency) status in Japan. Spouse has naturalized to a Japan citizen. My anecdote: without fitting into any of the qualifying categories, I was able to get a PR in Japan after residing in the country for 10 years. The rules have changed and with the right qualifications it's possible to apply for PR with only two years residency (work visa). Further anecdote: My wife recently got her Japanese citizenship. This was difficult, it took over a year and an intrusive investigation. Like getting top secret clearance. The investigation brought up why I wasn't pursuing Japanese citizenship until they discovered my low level of Japanese skills, and it was no longer an issue. My entire family here in the greater Tokyo area is doesn't quite fit in with the Japanese. We're a bit loud. We're consumerists. We get quizzical looks when filling in applications. We've broken software that expected only Japanese to use. It has it's negatives but the positives of being different in this mostly homogeneous society has it's advantages. Yes, my situation is a small minority but with the policy changes, it's one less hurdle for people who want to live in Japan. We are what makes the "society".
- skiller2 8y ago
  But they seem to have dramatically lowered the bar for highly paid workers to stay in the country. That 1 year PR eligibility is technically open to just about anyone earning over ~$100k. I know people who went over with nothing but a Bachelors, a few years in tech, and zero Japanese, but keeping their high incomes meant they could at least apply after only a year. I don't know how easy they would actually get it, so you may be right. Even with the work visas themselves, I know someone at a small R&D company in a small city desperate for people, earning kinda low. He got a 1 year visa, then after a decent raise, a 3 year visa. I make more money in a big city, and got 5 years right off the bat, with poor Japanese. PR eligibility once it expires. I still hear about English teachers bouncing between 1 year visas after 10+ years in the country and near fluency. I think a lot of what you hear about Japan comes from the English teacher side of things. Those guys are a dime a dozen, and have to hustle a lot. But there is a sense that Japan is desperate for skilled workers, and is trying to attract more of them. I've mentioned working in software to old dudes in bars and been instantly treated like an anticipated special guest, and told how good my opportunities are, that I should find a local girl and stay etc. Even if they'd rather not have foreigners in general, they are kinda rolling out the red carpet for a selection of them. All over the place companies advertise in English, promote their foreign working styles, and offer overseas relocation. They'll never be seen as Japanese, but welcomed to stay as if the country depends on them, which it just might
chaostheory 8y ago
Yes, non-Japanese ex-pats are welcome to visit, but they are definitely not welcome to stay. Immigrants will always be foreigners in Japan.
- InitialLastName 8y ago
  > Immigrants will always be foreigners in Japan. People Americans treat (arguably) worse than foreignors: - Those whose ancestors were in North America before it was colonized - Those whose ancestors were forcibly brought to North America more than 150 years ago.
  - chaostheory 8y ago
    Historically, US immigrants have been able to assimilate time and time again. That isn't the case in Japan. There are Koreans who's families have lived in Japan for hundreds of years... yet they still aren't considered Japanese. The Japanese would rather rely on robotics instead of immigration to mitigate their problem with a dwindling population. Yes, the US has done some horrible things in the past, yet: 1. we publicly admit them in the historical record 2. we teach these mistakes to our children in our schools as both reminders and ways to avoid them in the future. You cannot say the same about Japan.
mchaver 8y ago
The other question is, are there really any countries that are easy to immigrate to without the right to abode or right to return (for certain groups)?
kalleboo 8y ago
The difference is in unskilled workers. The US has open gates to unskilled Mexican workers, Europe has open gates to unskilled Middle Eastern workers. Japan has nothing like that.

swombat 8y ago

Based on my experience visiting Japan and talking to both expats and expat-friendly locals there, I think the issue is more cultural than political. If you live in Japan but don't look Japanese you never really feel welcomed as a Japanese. Contrast that to countries like most of the West, where at least a solid proportion of people consider it socially unacceptable to discriminate socially based on someone's looks or origins...

lovemenot 8y ago
This feeling they experienced is of course subjective. Take it from a 20-year non-native Tokyo resident - it doesn't have to feel unwelcoming. Depends on the individual I guess. Admittedly, I've never lived in any of the out-of-the way places where most of these properties are located.
jaredklewis 8y ago
> Contrast that to countries like most of the West, where at least a solid proportion of people consider it socially unacceptable to discriminate socially based on someone's looks or origins.. Those things are also socially unacceptable in Japan. My experience is that the often discussed "micro-agressions" against foreigners happen about as often in Japan as they do in my own country (US, grew up in Texas). Of course, the only complaints that foreigners in Japan can make is about trivia. The US is so fucked up that we cannot seem to stop shooting unarmed black men, we're separating mothers from babies, and as of last week now tear gassing families at the border. So not sure if you are American, but many of the foreigners in Japan that complain of discrimination are, and I just want to say that I think it takes a lot of balls for an American in Japan to be like "hey, you guys can do a lot better with the discrimination thing." As horrifying as someone being impressed with your ability to use chopsticks is, it's not quite so horrifying as being literally shot for walking on the street. Many people in the US freeze up if a black person so much as walks by them on the street. And on the other side of the pacific? Ask a random stranger for directions; 9 times out of 10 they will stop whatever they are doing and walk with you to wherever you are going.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Using tear gas at the border is an American thing, not a Trump thing. https://www.businessinsider.com/border-patrol-also-used-tear-gas-pepper-spray-at-border-under-obama-2018-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/border-patrol-also-used-tear... > The use of tear gas at the border by CBP began in 2010. > Since fiscal year 2012, CBP has employed tear gas a total of 126 times, but its use hit a 7-year high under Trump in fiscal year 2018.
  - alsetmusic 8y ago
    > Using tear gas at the border is an American thing, not a Trump thing. No one above thread claimed any individual was responsible. The apologetics of inserting that statement is unnecessary. I do respect that you added citations.
- Iamhisalt 8y ago
  Being asked if you can use chopsticks for the 10,000 time is a living hell.
- philliphaydon 8y ago
  It must be hard working on the border when people bring children that are not their own to fast tack their way through into the country. Or when families lie about their child’s age to loophole the system. But it’s easier for us to focus on the separation rather than the reason the separation exists to begin with. And let’s not forget tear gas being used for crowds of people throwing stones at border patrol. No lets focus on tear gas issue and less of the people doing their job being assulted.
  - crc32 8y ago
    > people bring children that are not their own to fast tack their way through into the country. Or when families lie about their child’s age to loophole the system. Completely citation & evidence free assertions - smells like slander to me.
    - 8y ago
Down_n_Out 8y ago
> If you live in Japan but don't look Japanese you never really feel welcomed as a Japanese. That goes for a lot of countries, especially if your skin color is different as well as your accent, language and whatnot. Heck, even when you are born in a country where you are not the same skin color as the majority you can feel not welcome. So, it's kind of a generalization to say that only about Japan.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
"you never really feel welcomed as a Japanese." Well, maybe because you're not Japanese? A different question is: "Would you feel welcome" I would consider it weirdly arrogant to go to Japan and then have them ever accept me as 'Japanese'. I would hope that thy are respectful to me, and treat me well, and maybe even 'as a Japanese' but not actually 'Japanese', because - I'm not! There's a big difference I think between 'rights' and 'cultural attribution', we mix them up a lot in the West.
- Nadya 8y ago
  You misunderstood. You need to look Japanese. It doesn't matter if you actually are Japanese. This video pokes some fun at it, taken to an extreme for comedic purpose of course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    I understood well enough. You're assuming that those White/Black people were Japanese because they were born and raised Japanese. From a certain perspective, that would not be correct. Many people (most of the world) view race as fundamentally intertwined with ethnicity, ergo, the white folks in the video may never really be considered 'fully Japanese', although surely they are mostly accommodated as such. 'American' really isn't an ethnicity so 'new world' people often have difficulty grasping how others might view ethnicity. As longs as people are treated reasonably, frankly, I don't care.

wokwokwok 8y ago

This is misrepresentative. You can apply, but actually getting both permanent residency and citizenship isn’t nearly that trivial. “Working in japan” and “becoming Japanese” are different things, and the latter is very much more difficult. Japan is very happy to have foreign workers who will politely leave once they lose their jobs / get old, but the immigration figures, in absolute terms, are tiny.

jac_no_k 8y ago
/me is a US citizen with a PR (permanent residency) status in Japan. Spouse has naturalized to a Japan citizen. My anecdote: without fitting into any of the qualifying categories, I was able to get a PR in Japan after residing in the country for 10 years. The rules have changed and with the right qualifications it's possible to apply for PR with only two years residency (work visa). Further anecdote: My wife recently got her Japanese citizenship. This was difficult, it took over a year and an intrusive investigation. Like getting top secret clearance. The investigation brought up why I wasn't pursuing Japanese citizenship until they discovered my low level of Japanese skills, and it was no longer an issue. My entire family here in the greater Tokyo area is doesn't quite fit in with the Japanese. We're a bit loud. We're consumerists. We get quizzical looks when filling in applications. We've broken software that expected only Japanese to use. It has it's negatives but the positives of being different in this mostly homogeneous society has it's advantages. Yes, my situation is a small minority but with the policy changes, it's one less hurdle for people who want to live in Japan. We are what makes the "society".
skiller2 8y ago
But they seem to have dramatically lowered the bar for highly paid workers to stay in the country. That 1 year PR eligibility is technically open to just about anyone earning over ~$100k. I know people who went over with nothing but a Bachelors, a few years in tech, and zero Japanese, but keeping their high incomes meant they could at least apply after only a year. I don't know how easy they would actually get it, so you may be right. Even with the work visas themselves, I know someone at a small R&D company in a small city desperate for people, earning kinda low. He got a 1 year visa, then after a decent raise, a 3 year visa. I make more money in a big city, and got 5 years right off the bat, with poor Japanese. PR eligibility once it expires. I still hear about English teachers bouncing between 1 year visas after 10+ years in the country and near fluency. I think a lot of what you hear about Japan comes from the English teacher side of things. Those guys are a dime a dozen, and have to hustle a lot. But there is a sense that Japan is desperate for skilled workers, and is trying to attract more of them. I've mentioned working in software to old dudes in bars and been instantly treated like an anticipated special guest, and told how good my opportunities are, that I should find a local girl and stay etc. Even if they'd rather not have foreigners in general, they are kinda rolling out the red carpet for a selection of them. All over the place companies advertise in English, promote their foreign working styles, and offer overseas relocation. They'll never be seen as Japanese, but welcomed to stay as if the country depends on them, which it just might

chaostheory 8y ago

Yes, non-Japanese ex-pats are welcome to visit, but they are definitely not welcome to stay. Immigrants will always be foreigners in Japan.

InitialLastName 8y ago
> Immigrants will always be foreigners in Japan. People Americans treat (arguably) worse than foreignors: - Those whose ancestors were in North America before it was colonized - Those whose ancestors were forcibly brought to North America more than 150 years ago.
- chaostheory 8y ago
  Historically, US immigrants have been able to assimilate time and time again. That isn't the case in Japan. There are Koreans who's families have lived in Japan for hundreds of years... yet they still aren't considered Japanese. The Japanese would rather rely on robotics instead of immigration to mitigate their problem with a dwindling population. Yes, the US has done some horrible things in the past, yet: 1. we publicly admit them in the historical record 2. we teach these mistakes to our children in our schools as both reminders and ways to avoid them in the future. You cannot say the same about Japan.

mchaver 8y ago

The other question is, are there really any countries that are easy to immigrate to without the right to abode or right to return (for certain groups)?

kalleboo 8y ago

The difference is in unskilled workers. The US has open gates to unskilled Mexican workers, Europe has open gates to unskilled Middle Eastern workers. Japan has nothing like that.