5 ms·

Sugary water will catch wild yeasts from the air and spontaneously ferment into alcohol [1]. It's incredibly difficult to prevent its production. AFAIK, 5-MeO-D

Sugary water will catch wild yeasts from the air and spontaneously ferment into alcohol [1]. It's incredibly difficult to prevent its production. AFAIK, 5-MeO-DMT or "Meow Meow" don't magically appear just because you forgot to put a jug of apple cider in the fridge. [1]: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Tej http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Tej Also, alcohol generally isn't that dangerous, unless people are driving and/or concentrating it via distillation.

dtf 16y ago
Regarding the relative danger of alcohol, David Nutt has just published a new study in The Lancet. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/nov/01/alcohol-more-harmful-than-heroin-crack http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/nov/01/alcohol-more-h... "The maximum possible harm score was 100 and the minimum zero. Overall, alcohol scored 72 – against 55 for heroin and 54 for crack. The most dangerous drugs to their individual users were ranked as heroin, crack and then crystal meth. The most harmful to others were alcohol, heroin and crack in that order." Although, I feel these scores are somewhat dependent on the relative prevalences of these substances. If we had as many meth addicts as alcoholics in the UK the picture could be somewhat different. Yet there's no denying that alcohol is a relatively evil drug.
- ghshephard 16y ago
  Regarding Alcohol: "When drunk in excess, alcohol damages nearly all organ systems. It is also connected to higher death rates and is involved in a greater percentage of crime than most other drugs, including heroin."
ghshephard 16y ago
Alcohol isn't dangerous? Compared to what? I'm a pretty conservative individual, and I've come close to dying at least three times in my life before I realized how lethal alcohol was. Luckily I had friends around me at the time - but I could easily have either overdosed or died choking on my own vomit. Many, Many others haven't been so lucky. And, have you seen what a lifetime abuser of alcohol looks like around 50 (if they, or their liver, survive that long). Seriously - anyone who argues for legalization of alcohol because it's "safer" than something like marijuana doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  The last sentence there originally said 'until', rather than 'unless'. I meant that distilling alcohol (i.e., liquor) makes it quite a bit more dangerous, that's all.
skymt 16y ago
FYI, your link is dead. Here's another source that ought to be stable: http://www.pitt.edu/~kloman/tej.html http://www.pitt.edu/~kloman/tej.html
CitizenKane 16y ago
Generally, the safety of a given substance can be determined through its therapeutic index. The therapeutic index for a substance is calculated by taking the amount of the substance that will induce toxicity in 50% of a population divided the dose that will induce the effect of the drug in 50% of the population. In short, the ratio of how much will be (acutely) toxic to how much will make you high. Here are some therapeutic indexes for common drugs [0]: Heroin - 6 Alcohol - 10 Cocaine - 15 MDMA - 16 LSD - ~1000 THC - > 1000 Alcohol has very dangerous acute effects and it's very possible to overdose on alcohol. Compare to THC where a toxic dose is on the level of 15g. Assuming that THC is approximately 5% of the content of the cannabis [1] this would mean smoking 300 grams of cannabis (with 100% absorption by the body). That would make for ~600 joints (with a joint having about half a gram of cannabis) to get to a level of toxicity. So relatively speaking, Alcohol (at least in the short term) is quite dangerous. [0] PDF - http://web.cgu.edu/faculty/gabler/toxicity%20Addiction%20offprint.pdf http://web.cgu.edu/faculty/gabler/toxicity%20Addiction%20off... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_%28drug%29#Potency http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_%28drug%29#Potency
- 2arrs2ells 16y ago
  Those are great statistics for judging the likelihood of overdosing (although, I'm not sure it's the only factor to consider - the physically small amount of cocaine needed to OD probably mitigates its higher therapeutic index). If you want to evaluate danger there are other factors that need to be considered -- i.e. people "safely" high on MDMA may dehydrate, and people "safely" high on LSD may jump off of a bridge.
  - swombat 16y ago
    people "safely" high on LSD may jump off of a bridge. Sober people may jump off a bridge too. Should we outlaw sobriety? The "man on LSD thinks he can fly and jumps out of window" myth is largely that: a myth. If I recall, it was inspired by a real story of LSD experimentation on some kind of federal agent, who was given a good dose of LSD without his knowledge, thought he was going mad, and threw himself out of a window to make it end.
dkersten 16y ago
Also, alcohol generally isn't that dangerous, unless people are driving and/or concentrating it via distillation. In the case of alcohol, besides what others have said, it also causes (IMHO) much more severe social problems than cannabis and mdma do: a lot of people die from alcohol related causes every year (accidents, overdose, etc), a lot of people are injured every year because of alcohol (street fights, domestic violence, accidents, etc), a lot of property damage is caused by drunk people.. Alcohol is, in my opinion, much more damaging than at least cannabis and E. I personally know one person who died because of long-term alcohol abuse. A friend of my brothers died of alcohol poisoning not that long ago. An old school friend almost died of pneumonia a few years ago because he passed out on the street after drinking. Countless people I or my family knew have died in alcohol-related car accidents over the years. I've seen more than a handful of peoples family or work lives be destroyed because of alcohol. I'm sorry, but I cannot agree that alcohol generally isn't that dangerous. For the record, I also know or have known people who regularly abuse or did abuse both cannabis and mdma and not one of them or their families have suffered any lasting negative effects due to it. In my opinion (and I won't hold it against you if you disagree, but theres no way I'll change my mind), alcohol is much worse than thc and mdma. (I don't mean to say that they're not bad, just that alcohol, which is legal, is much worse).
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  I phrased that poorly. The 'unless' in the last sentence was originally 'until'; I meant that distilling alcohol (liquor) makes it significantly more dangerous than non-distilled (beer, wine, etc.). I encountered a lot of drunk street people while working at a public library for several years, including a guy who had to have his stomach pumped because he (initially, discreetly) drank way too much vodka on a bench outside. I know that hard liquor can be very destructive, both in the short and long term. (My main point was how difficult it is to control alcohol production, that was just an aside.)
  - dkersten 16y ago
    Fair enough. I'd argue that they're doing a pretty bad job controlling production of illegal drugs too, though. Hell, some illegal drugs (ie mushrooms) can be found walking around the countryside (if you know what you're looking for, at least).
JonnieCache 16y ago
5 methoxy dimethyl triptamine IS NOT "Meow" (Mephedrone!) They are not anything like each other in effects or chemistry. Please check your facts, childrens lives are at stake here.
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  I know they're different, but I can see that being ambiguous since I didn't use three nouns and a serial comma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_comma#Ambiguity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_comma#Ambiguity). I meant that to read like, "AFAIK, X, Y, and Z don't magically appear...". That's what I get for posting just before bed, I guess - too much ambiguous phrasing.
silentbicycle 16y ago
Too late for the edit window: I phrased the last sentence poorly, I meant to say, "Also, alcohol is probably made quite a bit more dangerous when concentrated via distillation (into hard liquor), or when people are driving." The distillation is also where organized crime comes in, whether it's the mob or moonshiners and rum-runners. Making hard cider is easy, but running a still and distribution ring is probably beyond most people, and cider, beer, and wine aren't concentrated enough for smuggling.

dtf 16y ago

Regarding the relative danger of alcohol, David Nutt has just published a new study in The Lancet. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/nov/01/alcohol-more-harmful-than-heroin-crack http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/nov/01/alcohol-more-h... "The maximum possible harm score was 100 and the minimum zero. Overall, alcohol scored 72 – against 55 for heroin and 54 for crack. The most dangerous drugs to their individual users were ranked as heroin, crack and then crystal meth. The most harmful to others were alcohol, heroin and crack in that order." Although, I feel these scores are somewhat dependent on the relative prevalences of these substances. If we had as many meth addicts as alcoholics in the UK the picture could be somewhat different. Yet there's no denying that alcohol is a relatively evil drug.

ghshephard 16y ago
Regarding Alcohol: "When drunk in excess, alcohol damages nearly all organ systems. It is also connected to higher death rates and is involved in a greater percentage of crime than most other drugs, including heroin."

ghshephard 16y ago

Alcohol isn't dangerous? Compared to what? I'm a pretty conservative individual, and I've come close to dying at least three times in my life before I realized how lethal alcohol was. Luckily I had friends around me at the time - but I could easily have either overdosed or died choking on my own vomit. Many, Many others haven't been so lucky. And, have you seen what a lifetime abuser of alcohol looks like around 50 (if they, or their liver, survive that long). Seriously - anyone who argues for legalization of alcohol because it's "safer" than something like marijuana doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

silentbicycle 16y ago
The last sentence there originally said 'until', rather than 'unless'. I meant that distilling alcohol (i.e., liquor) makes it quite a bit more dangerous, that's all.

skymt 16y ago

FYI, your link is dead. Here's another source that ought to be stable: http://www.pitt.edu/~kloman/tej.html http://www.pitt.edu/~kloman/tej.html

CitizenKane 16y ago

Generally, the safety of a given substance can be determined through its therapeutic index. The therapeutic index for a substance is calculated by taking the amount of the substance that will induce toxicity in 50% of a population divided the dose that will induce the effect of the drug in 50% of the population. In short, the ratio of how much will be (acutely) toxic to how much will make you high. Here are some therapeutic indexes for common drugs [0]: Heroin - 6 Alcohol - 10 Cocaine - 15 MDMA - 16 LSD - ~1000 THC - > 1000 Alcohol has very dangerous acute effects and it's very possible to overdose on alcohol. Compare to THC where a toxic dose is on the level of 15g. Assuming that THC is approximately 5% of the content of the cannabis [1] this would mean smoking 300 grams of cannabis (with 100% absorption by the body). That would make for ~600 joints (with a joint having about half a gram of cannabis) to get to a level of toxicity. So relatively speaking, Alcohol (at least in the short term) is quite dangerous. [0] PDF - http://web.cgu.edu/faculty/gabler/toxicity%20Addiction%20offprint.pdf http://web.cgu.edu/faculty/gabler/toxicity%20Addiction%20off... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_%28drug%29#Potency http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_%28drug%29#Potency

2arrs2ells 16y ago
Those are great statistics for judging the likelihood of overdosing (although, I'm not sure it's the only factor to consider - the physically small amount of cocaine needed to OD probably mitigates its higher therapeutic index). If you want to evaluate danger there are other factors that need to be considered -- i.e. people "safely" high on MDMA may dehydrate, and people "safely" high on LSD may jump off of a bridge.
- swombat 16y ago
  people "safely" high on LSD may jump off of a bridge. Sober people may jump off a bridge too. Should we outlaw sobriety? The "man on LSD thinks he can fly and jumps out of window" myth is largely that: a myth. If I recall, it was inspired by a real story of LSD experimentation on some kind of federal agent, who was given a good dose of LSD without his knowledge, thought he was going mad, and threw himself out of a window to make it end.

dkersten 16y ago

Also, alcohol generally isn't that dangerous, unless people are driving and/or concentrating it via distillation. In the case of alcohol, besides what others have said, it also causes (IMHO) much more severe social problems than cannabis and mdma do: a lot of people die from alcohol related causes every year (accidents, overdose, etc), a lot of people are injured every year because of alcohol (street fights, domestic violence, accidents, etc), a lot of property damage is caused by drunk people.. Alcohol is, in my opinion, much more damaging than at least cannabis and E. I personally know one person who died because of long-term alcohol abuse. A friend of my brothers died of alcohol poisoning not that long ago. An old school friend almost died of pneumonia a few years ago because he passed out on the street after drinking. Countless people I or my family knew have died in alcohol-related car accidents over the years. I've seen more than a handful of peoples family or work lives be destroyed because of alcohol. I'm sorry, but I cannot agree that alcohol generally isn't that dangerous. For the record, I also know or have known people who regularly abuse or did abuse both cannabis and mdma and not one of them or their families have suffered any lasting negative effects due to it. In my opinion (and I won't hold it against you if you disagree, but theres no way I'll change my mind), alcohol is much worse than thc and mdma. (I don't mean to say that they're not bad, just that alcohol, which is legal, is much worse).

silentbicycle 16y ago
I phrased that poorly. The 'unless' in the last sentence was originally 'until'; I meant that distilling alcohol (liquor) makes it significantly more dangerous than non-distilled (beer, wine, etc.). I encountered a lot of drunk street people while working at a public library for several years, including a guy who had to have his stomach pumped because he (initially, discreetly) drank way too much vodka on a bench outside. I know that hard liquor can be very destructive, both in the short and long term. (My main point was how difficult it is to control alcohol production, that was just an aside.)
- dkersten 16y ago
  Fair enough. I'd argue that they're doing a pretty bad job controlling production of illegal drugs too, though. Hell, some illegal drugs (ie mushrooms) can be found walking around the countryside (if you know what you're looking for, at least).

JonnieCache 16y ago

5 methoxy dimethyl triptamine IS NOT "Meow" (Mephedrone!) They are not anything like each other in effects or chemistry. Please check your facts, childrens lives are at stake here.

silentbicycle 16y ago
I know they're different, but I can see that being ambiguous since I didn't use three nouns and a serial comma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_comma#Ambiguity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_comma#Ambiguity). I meant that to read like, "AFAIK, X, Y, and Z don't magically appear...". That's what I get for posting just before bed, I guess - too much ambiguous phrasing.

silentbicycle 16y ago

Too late for the edit window: I phrased the last sentence poorly, I meant to say, "Also, alcohol is probably made quite a bit more dangerous when concentrated via distillation (into hard liquor), or when people are driving." The distillation is also where organized crime comes in, whether it's the mob or moonshiners and rum-runners. Making hard cider is easy, but running a still and distribution ring is probably beyond most people, and cider, beer, and wine aren't concentrated enough for smuggling.