7 ms·

I’m a consultant and make a living saving bad projects. That’s literally why I get phone calls for work. Keep in mind that I work in high level modern languages

I’m a consultant and make a living saving bad projects. That’s literally why I get phone calls for work. Keep in mind that I work in high level modern languages, I’m sure there’s some crazy proprietary cpu running a robot in a Detroit factory. In any case there’s never been something that I’ve run into that I’ve not figured out. It takes time, and the hard part usually is not figuring out what it does but the weird edge case of the moon aligning with Venus and then the output suddenly changes. This is why understanding the requirements is more important than the code. I don’t care if the code is bad if I can more or less write a test case against it and make sure it does that. That said complete rewrites never happen. It usually is only rewriting portions when that is cheaper than fixing. It is the if it isn’t broke don’t fix it adage. The only time ever I’ve been stuck was when I saw a proprietary software implantation on top of a custom software package ontop of Solr (technically ontop of the JVM) create a large object heap issue ontop of a proprietary OS (Windows). It wasn’t code related I diagnosed that it was a GC issue, but it wasn’t in any code I had source to. A Windows update ended up fixing it. And this is why working with enterprise software is hard.

maxxxxx 8y ago
That sounds like something for me. I love optimizing and improving existing systems.
bap 8y ago
Have you used input/output proxy logging shims in these situations? They've been so invaluable to be in finding those weird edge cases that come up in 'orphaned software' projects as well as 'ancient legacy platform' migrations ;)
linuxlizard 8y ago
Do you have any specialized tools (code navigation tools, for example) that you use when first encountering these large piles of code? I'd love to hear some recommendations; I have to deal with large (only sometimes bad, but always large) piles of vendor code. I'm currently staring a pile of 900kloc of pretty nice code but it's a /lot/ of code.
- kjeetgill 8y ago
  Not OP, but I imagine this is fairly language specific. This is where Java shines. Keep in mind I mostly work with services not applications. My process looks like this: Step one: Identify sources of reflection, this is the triskyest. Hopefully the only dependencies are open source, so you generally know what they do and grep can usually find the rest. Step Two: go code spelunking. Find your entry points. Find your main() or framework equivalent. Find callsites for rest endpoints, rpc, jmx, etc. Step three: find other "external request processing" endpoints. Do you have timer threads? Reading a Kafka stream and acting per record? Etc. Once you understand those, you can interpret where most any stacktrace is from. Good old Intellij or Eclipse can give you all the callsites for a functions as you root around. You should slowly get a feel for which part of the code things get called from. Now start asking questions like: what data is shared between these entry points? What's mutable? Is it all done safely? Hopefully this wasn't too narrow an example. I'd imagine it'll apply to any services.
  - linuxlizard 8y ago
    I'm working in Linux wifi drivers, all in C. Giant complicated protocol with giant complicated code. I've been tinkering with Microsoft VSCode, CLion, and Sourcetrail. Vim + Ctags seems to work well in the beginning but only gives pinpoint answers (can find trees, but little view of the forest). Still experimenting.
- spc476 8y ago
  It depends upon the platform, the language and the toolsets. For instance, for C, a trick I've used is to (if I can) use different C compilers and crank the warnings/errors to 11 and fix every complaint (or try to---it can be daunting to attempt this all at once). Other tricks---run the code through linters or other stylistic nit-pickers and fix those too. I haven't yet used a code reformatter, but that's a quick way to get code into a consistent style.
  - linuxlizard 8y ago
    I'm all in C, too: kernel drivers from wifi chipset vendors. There's one C compiler we can use (gcc) and we're even restricted to working with a specific version (because cross compiling). We have to be very careful about changing any of the code because we have to integrate any changes into the next drop of the vendors' code. Static analysis is our best bet. Is a really interesting problem.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
kjeetgill 8y ago
Huh, I love working on a untangling and managing large old codebases. Mind sharing where your company or contacts?
- x0hm 8y ago
  Same - send us some info so we can do this too.
  - cm2012 8y ago
    I'm not OP, but I would be turned off by this comment because it sounds demanding.
    - hackernews31242 8y ago
      Yeah bit of an odd request for me to send you my business contacts. It really is being in an industry long enough to build a reputation to get things done. And these are enterprise projects, there’s no sexiness here. This is webforms in .NET type of stuff. Learning to ignore that the codebase is imperfect and will never be reasonable is one of the reasons I get calls.
      - kjeetgill 8y ago
        Sorry, to clarify: I meant a means to contact you, not your prospects. I was just curious about your business and didn't mean to be intrusive.
drums8787 8y ago
That's what I've been doing for the past 7 or so years. Turning around struggling products, gradually improving and then sometimes help a re-launch as "greenfield based on lessons learned" when the time is right. It's not the most sexy work in the early stages but very rewarding when you help turn a failing situation around. Sometimes it's bugs and bad algorithms or data structures. Sometimes it's misunderstood requirements and the fix has been surgical rewrites. Most often a mix.
- imhoguy 8y ago
  > It's not the most sexy work in the early stages but very rewarding when you help turn a failing situation around. And most often that struggling but working product still brings money and real value to people or business, not like most of greenfield shiny start-up..[cough!].. throw-away projects.
ironmagma 8y ago
That's really interesting, and definitely agree knowing the requirements is hugely important. I've heard from people at BigCorps about inheriting projects where no one at the company really knows how or why a piece of code behaves the way it does. That seems like one of the more terrifying scenarios, where you can't even ask someone what a particular piece of code is supposed to do, and you have no way of knowing how it's supposed to work (and then you are tasked with fixing bugs when they crop up). But I guess those three conditions are unlikely to overlap probably (hopefully).

maxxxxx 8y ago

That sounds like something for me. I love optimizing and improving existing systems.

bap 8y ago

Have you used input/output proxy logging shims in these situations? They've been so invaluable to be in finding those weird edge cases that come up in 'orphaned software' projects as well as 'ancient legacy platform' migrations ;)

linuxlizard 8y ago

Do you have any specialized tools (code navigation tools, for example) that you use when first encountering these large piles of code? I'd love to hear some recommendations; I have to deal with large (only sometimes bad, but always large) piles of vendor code. I'm currently staring a pile of 900kloc of pretty nice code but it's a /lot/ of code.

kjeetgill 8y ago
Not OP, but I imagine this is fairly language specific. This is where Java shines. Keep in mind I mostly work with services not applications. My process looks like this: Step one: Identify sources of reflection, this is the triskyest. Hopefully the only dependencies are open source, so you generally know what they do and grep can usually find the rest. Step Two: go code spelunking. Find your entry points. Find your main() or framework equivalent. Find callsites for rest endpoints, rpc, jmx, etc. Step three: find other "external request processing" endpoints. Do you have timer threads? Reading a Kafka stream and acting per record? Etc. Once you understand those, you can interpret where most any stacktrace is from. Good old Intellij or Eclipse can give you all the callsites for a functions as you root around. You should slowly get a feel for which part of the code things get called from. Now start asking questions like: what data is shared between these entry points? What's mutable? Is it all done safely? Hopefully this wasn't too narrow an example. I'd imagine it'll apply to any services.
- linuxlizard 8y ago
  I'm working in Linux wifi drivers, all in C. Giant complicated protocol with giant complicated code. I've been tinkering with Microsoft VSCode, CLion, and Sourcetrail. Vim + Ctags seems to work well in the beginning but only gives pinpoint answers (can find trees, but little view of the forest). Still experimenting.
spc476 8y ago
It depends upon the platform, the language and the toolsets. For instance, for C, a trick I've used is to (if I can) use different C compilers and crank the warnings/errors to 11 and fix every complaint (or try to---it can be daunting to attempt this all at once). Other tricks---run the code through linters or other stylistic nit-pickers and fix those too. I haven't yet used a code reformatter, but that's a quick way to get code into a consistent style.
- linuxlizard 8y ago
  I'm all in C, too: kernel drivers from wifi chipset vendors. There's one C compiler we can use (gcc) and we're even restricted to working with a specific version (because cross compiling). We have to be very careful about changing any of the code because we have to integrate any changes into the next drop of the vendors' code. Static analysis is our best bet. Is a really interesting problem.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

kjeetgill 8y ago

Huh, I love working on a untangling and managing large old codebases. Mind sharing where your company or contacts?

x0hm 8y ago
Same - send us some info so we can do this too.
- cm2012 8y ago
  I'm not OP, but I would be turned off by this comment because it sounds demanding.
  - hackernews31242 8y ago
    Yeah bit of an odd request for me to send you my business contacts. It really is being in an industry long enough to build a reputation to get things done. And these are enterprise projects, there’s no sexiness here. This is webforms in .NET type of stuff. Learning to ignore that the codebase is imperfect and will never be reasonable is one of the reasons I get calls.
    - kjeetgill 8y ago
      Sorry, to clarify: I meant a means to contact you, not your prospects. I was just curious about your business and didn't mean to be intrusive.

drums8787 8y ago

That's what I've been doing for the past 7 or so years. Turning around struggling products, gradually improving and then sometimes help a re-launch as "greenfield based on lessons learned" when the time is right. It's not the most sexy work in the early stages but very rewarding when you help turn a failing situation around. Sometimes it's bugs and bad algorithms or data structures. Sometimes it's misunderstood requirements and the fix has been surgical rewrites. Most often a mix.

imhoguy 8y ago
> It's not the most sexy work in the early stages but very rewarding when you help turn a failing situation around. And most often that struggling but working product still brings money and real value to people or business, not like most of greenfield shiny start-up..[cough!].. throw-away projects.

ironmagma 8y ago

That's really interesting, and definitely agree knowing the requirements is hugely important. I've heard from people at BigCorps about inheriting projects where no one at the company really knows how or why a piece of code behaves the way it does. That seems like one of the more terrifying scenarios, where you can't even ask someone what a particular piece of code is supposed to do, and you have no way of knowing how it's supposed to work (and then you are tasked with fixing bugs when they crop up). But I guess those three conditions are unlikely to overlap probably (hopefully).