10 ms·

There's an ice cream and bagel place in town. In the late evening it's consistently packed with people on their laptops or reading books. One day I noticed th

There's an ice cream and bagel place in town. In the late evening it's consistently packed with people on their laptops or reading books. One day I noticed the music was much louder than usual, and asked the staff to turn it down. I figured it was a mistake because it was normally much quieter. They told me this was the new company policy. To set the music uncomfortably loud to make people leave, after finishing their food or drink. (Around the same time they also instigated a 30 minute time limit on Wifi if you bought something. Even though I was willing to keep buying, I couldn't get through a new tea every 30 minutes!) Theory being it's more profitable to make your customers leave and make room for others, than to make a place people want to go to. I haven't been back. Even with noise-cancelling headphones(∗), and earbuds under the headphones, it was too loud for me. And the wifi policy was really annoying. Sadly, I've noticed ultra loud music seems to be the policy at a lot of places these days. I find Starbucks and Costa ok - but some of my friends won't go with me because they find the music there too loud as well. (∗) I wear noise-cancellers at most places now. It probably makes me look unsocial or "hipster", but it's to protect my ears from the loud music just about everywhere insists on playing, and helps me concentrate when I'm working in a café. I enjoy talking with people if they want to.

something2 8y ago
Does wearing noise-cancelling headphones actually protect your ears? My understanding of noise-cancelling(at least the active kind) is that it would play the noise you would normally hear but in a mirrored fashion to dampen out the noise you'd hear. I'm just wondering if that would protect your ears, do as much harm, or double it.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  Noise is noise, and if you cancel it out it's gone. Sound waves obey the superposition principle, which means that if I take 1 psi and superimpose -1 psi, I get 1-1=0 psi.
  - kevincennis 8y ago
    That's true, of course. But it's much harder to actively cancel higher frequencies. This is why noise cancelling works brilliantly on an airplane (relatively low frequency background noise) but it does almost nothing to filter out the sounds of conversations around you.
    - erikpukinskis 8y ago
      I always thought it was because noise cancelling can only block repeated waves (like the sound of an engine whirring) but conversation is constant changing sound so it can’t be blocked.
      - hammock 8y ago
        Much easier to match pace with a wave with long wavelength than one with short
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - michaelcampbell 8y ago
      Yes, but the question was essentially, "does the sound it cancels out and you don't hear still hurt you". If you still hear it, you're answering something else.
    - lodi 8y ago
      High frequencies are passively attenuated by the foam inside the earcups. It's the mid frequencies (speech, etc.) that survive both active and passive noise cancellation. Still, a high end pair of ANC headphones does a good job on speech/tv if you have some soft music playing through them.
- jlokier 8y ago
  I don't know if it truly protects them from damage overall. That would take science. See "complicated" below :) But the basic answer to your question is, no, it doesn't double the sound energy. To the extent the headphones are successful at creating an inverse sound to cancel incoming sound, that will reduce the sound energy reaching the inner ears. The sound and its "mirror" don't add up to increase energy, rather, the energy reaching the ears is reduced where waves cancel. (The same thing happens in, say, optical interference patterns, and coastal waves. All the energy which seems to mysteriously disappear where waves cancel is, in fact, accounted for by increasing at the places the same waves interfere contructively. In the case of headphones, it's going to be rather more subtly accounted for either elsewhere in the spatial pattern around and on the speaker, and/or by the speaker acting as a net energy absorber.) Active noise-cancellers also have a passive component. The big squishy cups on mine (Bose QC-35). These of course reduce incoming sound energy too. But it's more complicated than that. Ears have a sort of physical volume control of their own (using tiny muscles), which reacts to the sound level. As far as I'm aware, damage is more likely deeper in the ear, past that stage. So anything which alters the ear's coarse volume response might produce a more complicated damage response than simply measuring incoming levels would suggest. I apply that theory: I sometimes listen to music on the headphones, in high volume environments. This seems to mask out the environmental noise better, and my theory is this isn't just psychoacoustic masking, it's causing my ears to block out more sound physically, helping to protect them physically. When doing this I listen to music which has a consistent sound level, rather than, say, a podcast or something subtle like classical. I've read that noise-cancellers produce a hiss which annoys some people. I can't say I've noticed much volume to the hiss, and I used to assume it was residual signal from the signal processing. But it may be that's intended to interact with the ear muscles too.
  - 8note 8y ago
    won't that depend on how well synced the waves are? if you get the wrong phase, you're doubling the amplitude
    - jlokier 8y ago
      If you get the wrong phase, you can hear it - it's louder. So, if it's quieter, you're ok. If the device makes the outside world louder, then yes, you might want to turn it off. (This actually happens on my headphones when taking a call.)
- ball_of_lint 8y ago
  A good fraction of noise canceling for some over-ear headphones is the cups that go over your ear. Having that barrier can be a significant sound damper on its own. Also, whatshisface is exactly correct.
- gmiller123456 8y ago
  In addition to canceling sound, the headphones actually block a lot of it to begin with, so they only have to cancel what's left. On the gun range, it's pretty popular to use quite the opposite of noise canceling headphones. They actually amplify sounds at normal human speech levels, then cut off anything above a certain amount. They make no attempt to cancel the gunshot sounds, they just don't reply them inside the headphones. And the blockage from just the physical headphones is enough to turn a deafening gunshot into something fairly comfortable to listen to for quite a long time.
err4nt 8y ago
It's funny how obvious some people make it that they don't want business. I don't really care about power plugs or wifi when I visit a café (my battery running out is a great motivator + natural time limit, I can tether to my phone for internet) but I always pay close attention to how a new café is outfitted. Some cafés that genuinely want your business make plugs available to the customers, some will even go as far as to put in plugs with USB adapters as well because they are making it clear: I want you to be here. Other places have no special extra plugs (just what you'd expect for a room that size) and that's fine, but some places have intentionally NO plugs and that's not an accident, that's by design. Same thing with the wifi policy. I don't care if you have wifi, or don't have wifi, but if you aggressively block ~50% of all sites, seemingly at random, or have a time limit on usage…the message it clear, you only have Wifi so you can say "we have wifi" but you don't really mean it. I only hope to patronize places that are welcoming, even if I'm not relying on those facilities that day. Those are the kinds of places I want to stay in business. The kinds of places with limited internet and no plugs are the kinds of places that I don't want to be in business tomorrow, so I had better make sure not to give them a penny today.
- amluto 8y ago
  In Palo Alto, there’s a cafe (more or less) call Hana House that has three big sections. One of those sections is very comfy, quiet, has proper acoustic design, lots of outlets, and, gasp charges for time. It’s actually a fairly nice model. If you want to work in someone’s commercial space, paying for it is entirely reasonable.
  - keithpeter 8y ago
    Strikes me as a sensible business model if you can actually cover the recurring costs by getting enough people in. UK version... https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2014/jan/08/pay-per-minute-cafe-ziferblat-london-russia https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2014/jan/08/pay-per-minut... London: https://london.ziferblat.net/ https://london.ziferblat.net/ Manchester: https://www.ziferblat.co.uk/ https://www.ziferblat.co.uk/ 8p/min = £4.80 per hour. Bearing in mind I'd pay £5 for coffee and a cake in many places that seems reasonable. UK: many public access spaces have places to sit and public wifi (e.g. central reference library, University buildings, some City Council buildings &c)
switch007 8y ago
Pret is really obviously doing the loud music thing too (and has for a couple of years at least). They lost my patronage. Not that they care: I think they had very good financials before their sale to Krispy Kreme. [aside rant] We have a very strange cafe culture in the UK compared to continental Europe: too many chains, too expensive, poor quality, takeaway coffee. The latest insult is chains not wanting to wash cups, so now we have to bring in re-usable cups. At least they're offering discounts, for now.
- softawre 8y ago
  I mean, if you are bringing your own cup, just make your own coffee.
- detaro 8y ago
  They require you bring a cup? Otherwise you just get a paper one or ...?
  - switch007 8y ago
    Heh, I was referring to separate things and connected them in a tin-foil-hat way: the quite recent campaign against paper cups which encourages people to buy re-usable travel mugs and my experience with various chains serving paper cups even when sitting in (possibly fazing out normal cups). As in we're being guilted in to not accepting paper cups and instead bringing re-usable mugs.
    - detaro 8y ago
      Ah. Yes, paper cups for sit-down visitors is annoying. Here in Germany some places even give out reusable cups with deposit for to go (as an alternative to paper if you forgot your own travel mug)
solatic 8y ago
You can still find places where you can be served a beverage of your choice in a comfortable chair and tranquil setting. They just tend to have membership fees.
- crooked-v 8y ago
  I'm curious what places you're talking about.
  - SilasX 8y ago
    Not sure if it's exactly what the parent meant, but, at Workshop Cafe in SF, you just pay to use a seat per hour and otherwise don't have to buy anything, so there's no incentive to get you out the door and free up the spot.
  - dylan604 8y ago
    In the UK, private membership clubs are a thing. I'd assume it's not just a UK thing, but I have a friend that is a member at one just to have a place to get out of the house and have a quiet place to go work. Cheaper than renting an actual office, and he doesn't need it everyday. For people that do not work from home, it is quite shocking when you realize how not-quite home can be. Primarily if you have family. Other family members "forget" you're actually working, and have no problem interrupting. Not to say in an office co-workers have no problem interrupting either, but that's a different conversation.
  - tejtm 8y ago
    the traditional country club, or other snooty members only organization, perhaps golf clubs in the U.S.
decebalus1 8y ago
It probably won't be the most popular opinion but I'm siding with the business for this one. I never got people who use cafe bars, delis, etc.. as personal offices. I personally can't get 'in the zone' in such a public place where: - I need to buy/consume something every X minutes - have to overhear irrelevant stupid/mundane conversations - people have a habit of bringing their dogs everywhere now and I'm not even going to get into how disruptive that is - deal with the passive-aggressiveness of the employees when you spend a couple of hours there Whenever I work from home and I need a 'public' place in order to separate home and work, I go to the local library for which I pay taxes. It's probably the only place I can walk in, not be expected to buy anything and just enjoy the silence. Other times when the weather is nice I just go the park or on a bench on the public trail and use my phone as a hotspot. The bagel/coffee/sandwich/donut shops are businesses where people should walk in, buy something, have a date/meeting/chat and then leave. I'm probably a weirdo but again, I never got this working from a coffee shop thing.
- NotAnEconomist 8y ago
  > I never got this working from a coffee shop thing. This is an old tradition. Cafes, bars, tea houses, etc have served as social hubs and placed to read or work on documents (now computers) for literally thousands of years, everywhere on the planet. There's simply a social need for a space like that, because it's a more efficient usage of space to have people work on a revolving basis in a shared space than everyone have a private space of their own or not be able to work. It's only with the modern invention of corporate coffee shops that misvalue social fabric that we see the churn happening. (PS -- those corporate stores are wrong about the short term boost from churn improving their long term fortunes, at least from what I've heard from the big ones.) I also find it interesting you approve of one "office-like" usage -- having a chat or meeting -- but disapprove of another -- working on documents.
  - mwfunk 8y ago
    That makes sense. Having a meeting is disruptive to everyone else but working on documents does not. It's like an open office, the last thing you want to do is make noise and disturb people trying to get work done (ironically).
Mikeb85 8y ago
Operating a restaurant is expensive. Rent is by the square foot, so you taking up a certain amount of space with your 1 tea per hour (max 2 teas?) won't pay their bills.
- johnvanommen 8y ago
  I managed restaurants for a few years. One consistent mistake that I saw, was that restaurant owners would rent more space than they needed. I think the owners over-estimated how popular things were going to be. Because of this, one of the easiest ways to improve your odds of success, when you own a restaurant, is to lease LESS space than you need. Basically there's a lot of good reasons to make your customers wait in line: 1) You're not paying to rent the sidewalk in front of your restaurant 2) Having a few customers waiting out front is a great advertisement for your place. Obviously, this isn't great for customers, but if you're a restaurateur it's awesome. Out in Vegas, restaurants and clubs routinely pay people to wait out front to make their place seem "in-demand."
  - Mikeb85 8y ago
    Absolutely. At the end of the day, you need to maximize dollars per square foot (or seat). Better to do 3 turns of 25 covers than to do 1 turn of 75 covers.
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
I remember growing up not wanting to go out to eat with my parents. They liked this certain cafeteria style restaurant where you'd grab a tray and slide it along picking out your dishes and paying at the end. I hated that place not because of the food, I could always find something to eat, but because it was so quiet I could hear the people around me eating. It was so disgusting.
JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
Why are you using an ice cream and bagel place as a library or home?
- jlokier 8y ago
  TBH your question strikes me as having a trolling tone. But I'll answer in good faith anyway. I'm pretty sure most people here understand why people like going to communal places to sit, enjoy snacks and drinks, and read or work quietly. The question is, why is everyone else using it as a library with snacks. As I said, it's always packed in the late evenings. The neighbouring coffee shops are also packed until midnight. Here are some ideas: - Why not, it's nice to do. - Some of us are happy to pay for it. - Lots of people want an evening place, aka "third space", but don't care for bars, alcohol and shouting. They want to quietly sit and read late at night, socially around other people, with some talking some of the time, but not constantly. - For many, home is not suitable for working, studying or relaxing. It depends a lot on the home. - It helps to be around other people to focus and relax, and it's nice to have an ice cream and/or bagel and/or drink while doing it. - There's no library nearby. - There's a great library further away, but it's shut in the evenings. (Our libraries are often packed with people. Until they close, then everyone has to find somewhere else.) - If you enjoy reading/writing around strangers being a bit fun and lively, you won't get that in a library. But a bar is too much. Maybe it doesn't work for you, but for me and many others, the buzz from people just being happy in the vicinity is quite helpful. - No affordable co-working spaces. The few co-working spaces are either rent-per-month (too expensive if you don't use them a lot), or closed in the evening to daily renters. Anyway, the day rate (~$20/day) is too much if you're only out for a couple of hours, and don't have good money (most people I see around are not working in IT, btw). - Not enough friendly communal spaces. (Btw, I've helped run one of these. It was really hard work!)
dreamcompiler 8y ago
I just spent a month in continental Europe, and the cafes and restaurants there are very different than in the US. In the US, restaurants want you to leave ASAP so they can turn the tables quickly. In Europe, they're perfectly happy to let you linger all day. I even became annoyed that nobody in a European restaurant would ever bring me the check. (Finally I learned to just get up and go to the register; this seemed a perfectly fine solution.) Another commenter here said this was because US servers depended on tips, while tipping is not done in European restaurants. Maybe so; overall I like the European method much better.
yellowapple 8y ago
Sounds like there'd be a good market for places that charge you for the time you spend in them rather than for the merchandise. Maybe just a bunch of desks and someone walking around with coffee/tea and snacks (free or cheap). Charge, say, $10/hour.
- aembleton 8y ago
  Ziferblat [1] does this for £4.80 an hour, with a four hour cap so you never pay more than £19.20 per day. I've not found the environment very conducive to getting much work done though. It's too noisy and there aren't enough desks. I've had more success with the Department of Coffee and Social Affairs [2] which charges in the same way as a coffee shop but feels more like a co-working space. 1. https://www.ziferblat.co.uk/ https://www.ziferblat.co.uk/ 2. https://www.departmentofcoffee.com/ https://www.departmentofcoffee.com/
b_tterc_p 8y ago
The architectural design of making chairs uncomfortable so people don’t stay in your restaurant for long has been a neat niche of mainstream fast food chains for a while.

something2 8y ago

Does wearing noise-cancelling headphones actually protect your ears? My understanding of noise-cancelling(at least the active kind) is that it would play the noise you would normally hear but in a mirrored fashion to dampen out the noise you'd hear. I'm just wondering if that would protect your ears, do as much harm, or double it.

whatshisface 8y ago
Noise is noise, and if you cancel it out it's gone. Sound waves obey the superposition principle, which means that if I take 1 psi and superimpose -1 psi, I get 1-1=0 psi.
- kevincennis 8y ago
  That's true, of course. But it's much harder to actively cancel higher frequencies. This is why noise cancelling works brilliantly on an airplane (relatively low frequency background noise) but it does almost nothing to filter out the sounds of conversations around you.
  - erikpukinskis 8y ago
    I always thought it was because noise cancelling can only block repeated waves (like the sound of an engine whirring) but conversation is constant changing sound so it can’t be blocked.
    - hammock 8y ago
      Much easier to match pace with a wave with long wavelength than one with short
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - michaelcampbell 8y ago
    Yes, but the question was essentially, "does the sound it cancels out and you don't hear still hurt you". If you still hear it, you're answering something else.
  - lodi 8y ago
    High frequencies are passively attenuated by the foam inside the earcups. It's the mid frequencies (speech, etc.) that survive both active and passive noise cancellation. Still, a high end pair of ANC headphones does a good job on speech/tv if you have some soft music playing through them.
jlokier 8y ago
I don't know if it truly protects them from damage overall. That would take science. See "complicated" below :) But the basic answer to your question is, no, it doesn't double the sound energy. To the extent the headphones are successful at creating an inverse sound to cancel incoming sound, that will reduce the sound energy reaching the inner ears. The sound and its "mirror" don't add up to increase energy, rather, the energy reaching the ears is reduced where waves cancel. (The same thing happens in, say, optical interference patterns, and coastal waves. All the energy which seems to mysteriously disappear where waves cancel is, in fact, accounted for by increasing at the places the same waves interfere contructively. In the case of headphones, it's going to be rather more subtly accounted for either elsewhere in the spatial pattern around and on the speaker, and/or by the speaker acting as a net energy absorber.) Active noise-cancellers also have a passive component. The big squishy cups on mine (Bose QC-35). These of course reduce incoming sound energy too. But it's more complicated than that. Ears have a sort of physical volume control of their own (using tiny muscles), which reacts to the sound level. As far as I'm aware, damage is more likely deeper in the ear, past that stage. So anything which alters the ear's coarse volume response might produce a more complicated damage response than simply measuring incoming levels would suggest. I apply that theory: I sometimes listen to music on the headphones, in high volume environments. This seems to mask out the environmental noise better, and my theory is this isn't just psychoacoustic masking, it's causing my ears to block out more sound physically, helping to protect them physically. When doing this I listen to music which has a consistent sound level, rather than, say, a podcast or something subtle like classical. I've read that noise-cancellers produce a hiss which annoys some people. I can't say I've noticed much volume to the hiss, and I used to assume it was residual signal from the signal processing. But it may be that's intended to interact with the ear muscles too.
- 8note 8y ago
  won't that depend on how well synced the waves are? if you get the wrong phase, you're doubling the amplitude
  - jlokier 8y ago
    If you get the wrong phase, you can hear it - it's louder. So, if it's quieter, you're ok. If the device makes the outside world louder, then yes, you might want to turn it off. (This actually happens on my headphones when taking a call.)
ball_of_lint 8y ago
A good fraction of noise canceling for some over-ear headphones is the cups that go over your ear. Having that barrier can be a significant sound damper on its own. Also, whatshisface is exactly correct.
gmiller123456 8y ago
In addition to canceling sound, the headphones actually block a lot of it to begin with, so they only have to cancel what's left. On the gun range, it's pretty popular to use quite the opposite of noise canceling headphones. They actually amplify sounds at normal human speech levels, then cut off anything above a certain amount. They make no attempt to cancel the gunshot sounds, they just don't reply them inside the headphones. And the blockage from just the physical headphones is enough to turn a deafening gunshot into something fairly comfortable to listen to for quite a long time.

err4nt 8y ago

It's funny how obvious some people make it that they don't want business. I don't really care about power plugs or wifi when I visit a café (my battery running out is a great motivator + natural time limit, I can tether to my phone for internet) but I always pay close attention to how a new café is outfitted. Some cafés that genuinely want your business make plugs available to the customers, some will even go as far as to put in plugs with USB adapters as well because they are making it clear: I want you to be here. Other places have no special extra plugs (just what you'd expect for a room that size) and that's fine, but some places have intentionally NO plugs and that's not an accident, that's by design. Same thing with the wifi policy. I don't care if you have wifi, or don't have wifi, but if you aggressively block ~50% of all sites, seemingly at random, or have a time limit on usage…the message it clear, you only have Wifi so you can say "we have wifi" but you don't really mean it. I only hope to patronize places that are welcoming, even if I'm not relying on those facilities that day. Those are the kinds of places I want to stay in business. The kinds of places with limited internet and no plugs are the kinds of places that I don't want to be in business tomorrow, so I had better make sure not to give them a penny today.

amluto 8y ago
In Palo Alto, there’s a cafe (more or less) call Hana House that has three big sections. One of those sections is very comfy, quiet, has proper acoustic design, lots of outlets, and, gasp charges for time. It’s actually a fairly nice model. If you want to work in someone’s commercial space, paying for it is entirely reasonable.
- keithpeter 8y ago
  Strikes me as a sensible business model if you can actually cover the recurring costs by getting enough people in. UK version... https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2014/jan/08/pay-per-minute-cafe-ziferblat-london-russia https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2014/jan/08/pay-per-minut... London: https://london.ziferblat.net/ https://london.ziferblat.net/ Manchester: https://www.ziferblat.co.uk/ https://www.ziferblat.co.uk/ 8p/min = £4.80 per hour. Bearing in mind I'd pay £5 for coffee and a cake in many places that seems reasonable. UK: many public access spaces have places to sit and public wifi (e.g. central reference library, University buildings, some City Council buildings &c)

switch007 8y ago

Pret is really obviously doing the loud music thing too (and has for a couple of years at least). They lost my patronage. Not that they care: I think they had very good financials before their sale to Krispy Kreme. [aside rant] We have a very strange cafe culture in the UK compared to continental Europe: too many chains, too expensive, poor quality, takeaway coffee. The latest insult is chains not wanting to wash cups, so now we have to bring in re-usable cups. At least they're offering discounts, for now.

softawre 8y ago
I mean, if you are bringing your own cup, just make your own coffee.
detaro 8y ago
They require you bring a cup? Otherwise you just get a paper one or ...?
- switch007 8y ago
  Heh, I was referring to separate things and connected them in a tin-foil-hat way: the quite recent campaign against paper cups which encourages people to buy re-usable travel mugs and my experience with various chains serving paper cups even when sitting in (possibly fazing out normal cups). As in we're being guilted in to not accepting paper cups and instead bringing re-usable mugs.
  - detaro 8y ago
    Ah. Yes, paper cups for sit-down visitors is annoying. Here in Germany some places even give out reusable cups with deposit for to go (as an alternative to paper if you forgot your own travel mug)

solatic 8y ago

You can still find places where you can be served a beverage of your choice in a comfortable chair and tranquil setting. They just tend to have membership fees.

crooked-v 8y ago
I'm curious what places you're talking about.
- SilasX 8y ago
  Not sure if it's exactly what the parent meant, but, at Workshop Cafe in SF, you just pay to use a seat per hour and otherwise don't have to buy anything, so there's no incentive to get you out the door and free up the spot.
- dylan604 8y ago
  In the UK, private membership clubs are a thing. I'd assume it's not just a UK thing, but I have a friend that is a member at one just to have a place to get out of the house and have a quiet place to go work. Cheaper than renting an actual office, and he doesn't need it everyday. For people that do not work from home, it is quite shocking when you realize how not-quite home can be. Primarily if you have family. Other family members "forget" you're actually working, and have no problem interrupting. Not to say in an office co-workers have no problem interrupting either, but that's a different conversation.
- tejtm 8y ago
  the traditional country club, or other snooty members only organization, perhaps golf clubs in the U.S.

decebalus1 8y ago

It probably won't be the most popular opinion but I'm siding with the business for this one. I never got people who use cafe bars, delis, etc.. as personal offices. I personally can't get 'in the zone' in such a public place where: - I need to buy/consume something every X minutes - have to overhear irrelevant stupid/mundane conversations - people have a habit of bringing their dogs everywhere now and I'm not even going to get into how disruptive that is - deal with the passive-aggressiveness of the employees when you spend a couple of hours there Whenever I work from home and I need a 'public' place in order to separate home and work, I go to the local library for which I pay taxes. It's probably the only place I can walk in, not be expected to buy anything and just enjoy the silence. Other times when the weather is nice I just go the park or on a bench on the public trail and use my phone as a hotspot. The bagel/coffee/sandwich/donut shops are businesses where people should walk in, buy something, have a date/meeting/chat and then leave. I'm probably a weirdo but again, I never got this working from a coffee shop thing.

NotAnEconomist 8y ago
> I never got this working from a coffee shop thing. This is an old tradition. Cafes, bars, tea houses, etc have served as social hubs and placed to read or work on documents (now computers) for literally thousands of years, everywhere on the planet. There's simply a social need for a space like that, because it's a more efficient usage of space to have people work on a revolving basis in a shared space than everyone have a private space of their own or not be able to work. It's only with the modern invention of corporate coffee shops that misvalue social fabric that we see the churn happening. (PS -- those corporate stores are wrong about the short term boost from churn improving their long term fortunes, at least from what I've heard from the big ones.) I also find it interesting you approve of one "office-like" usage -- having a chat or meeting -- but disapprove of another -- working on documents.
- mwfunk 8y ago
  That makes sense. Having a meeting is disruptive to everyone else but working on documents does not. It's like an open office, the last thing you want to do is make noise and disturb people trying to get work done (ironically).

Mikeb85 8y ago

Operating a restaurant is expensive. Rent is by the square foot, so you taking up a certain amount of space with your 1 tea per hour (max 2 teas?) won't pay their bills.

johnvanommen 8y ago
I managed restaurants for a few years. One consistent mistake that I saw, was that restaurant owners would rent more space than they needed. I think the owners over-estimated how popular things were going to be. Because of this, one of the easiest ways to improve your odds of success, when you own a restaurant, is to lease LESS space than you need. Basically there's a lot of good reasons to make your customers wait in line: 1) You're not paying to rent the sidewalk in front of your restaurant 2) Having a few customers waiting out front is a great advertisement for your place. Obviously, this isn't great for customers, but if you're a restaurateur it's awesome. Out in Vegas, restaurants and clubs routinely pay people to wait out front to make their place seem "in-demand."
- Mikeb85 8y ago
  Absolutely. At the end of the day, you need to maximize dollars per square foot (or seat). Better to do 3 turns of 25 covers than to do 1 turn of 75 covers.

JustSomeNobody 8y ago

I remember growing up not wanting to go out to eat with my parents. They liked this certain cafeteria style restaurant where you'd grab a tray and slide it along picking out your dishes and paying at the end. I hated that place not because of the food, I could always find something to eat, but because it was so quiet I could hear the people around me eating. It was so disgusting.

JohnJamesRambo 8y ago

Why are you using an ice cream and bagel place as a library or home?

jlokier 8y ago
TBH your question strikes me as having a trolling tone. But I'll answer in good faith anyway. I'm pretty sure most people here understand why people like going to communal places to sit, enjoy snacks and drinks, and read or work quietly. The question is, why is everyone else using it as a library with snacks. As I said, it's always packed in the late evenings. The neighbouring coffee shops are also packed until midnight. Here are some ideas: - Why not, it's nice to do. - Some of us are happy to pay for it. - Lots of people want an evening place, aka "third space", but don't care for bars, alcohol and shouting. They want to quietly sit and read late at night, socially around other people, with some talking some of the time, but not constantly. - For many, home is not suitable for working, studying or relaxing. It depends a lot on the home. - It helps to be around other people to focus and relax, and it's nice to have an ice cream and/or bagel and/or drink while doing it. - There's no library nearby. - There's a great library further away, but it's shut in the evenings. (Our libraries are often packed with people. Until they close, then everyone has to find somewhere else.) - If you enjoy reading/writing around strangers being a bit fun and lively, you won't get that in a library. But a bar is too much. Maybe it doesn't work for you, but for me and many others, the buzz from people just being happy in the vicinity is quite helpful. - No affordable co-working spaces. The few co-working spaces are either rent-per-month (too expensive if you don't use them a lot), or closed in the evening to daily renters. Anyway, the day rate (~$20/day) is too much if you're only out for a couple of hours, and don't have good money (most people I see around are not working in IT, btw). - Not enough friendly communal spaces. (Btw, I've helped run one of these. It was really hard work!)

dreamcompiler 8y ago

I just spent a month in continental Europe, and the cafes and restaurants there are very different than in the US. In the US, restaurants want you to leave ASAP so they can turn the tables quickly. In Europe, they're perfectly happy to let you linger all day. I even became annoyed that nobody in a European restaurant would ever bring me the check. (Finally I learned to just get up and go to the register; this seemed a perfectly fine solution.) Another commenter here said this was because US servers depended on tips, while tipping is not done in European restaurants. Maybe so; overall I like the European method much better.

yellowapple 8y ago

Sounds like there'd be a good market for places that charge you for the time you spend in them rather than for the merchandise. Maybe just a bunch of desks and someone walking around with coffee/tea and snacks (free or cheap). Charge, say, $10/hour.

aembleton 8y ago
Ziferblat [1] does this for £4.80 an hour, with a four hour cap so you never pay more than £19.20 per day. I've not found the environment very conducive to getting much work done though. It's too noisy and there aren't enough desks. I've had more success with the Department of Coffee and Social Affairs [2] which charges in the same way as a coffee shop but feels more like a co-working space. 1. https://www.ziferblat.co.uk/ https://www.ziferblat.co.uk/ 2. https://www.departmentofcoffee.com/ https://www.departmentofcoffee.com/

b_tterc_p 8y ago

The architectural design of making chairs uncomfortable so people don’t stay in your restaurant for long has been a neat niche of mainstream fast food chains for a while.