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This is great. I love that people are taking on the higher education space. During my masters I would take the uni's online courses that were of absolute garbag

This is great. I love that people are taking on the higher education space. During my masters I would take the uni's online courses that were of absolute garbage quality. I've gotten better content from Udemy for 45$. The only reason they could get $3500 per class from me is because they were one of a limited few accredited universities in my area. Competition in this space is much needed. I hope that Make School will one day be competing on price. I also really like the idea of a focused 2 year degree in applied CS. CS concepts are useful but at the end of the day we're building applications and solving problems. A minority of CS graduates stay in a pure CS role. It also takes out a lot of the fluff of general ed. I would absolutely have traded my undergrad for a program like this, but I doubt I would have had that foresight back when I was transferring from community college.

jseliger 8y ago
I've taught quite a bit as an adjunct: https://jakeseliger.com/2016/02/25/universities-treat-adjuncts-like-they-do-because-they-can/ https://jakeseliger.com/2016/02/25/universities-treat-adjunc... and also like the idea of taking on higher ed; one school had a sticker price of $25K/year for tuition and paid adjuncts $3.4K/class. Even accounting for discounts against the sticker price, the situation just doesn't add up. Accreditation is an underrated, little-understood barrier to entry in the higher ed industry.
DesaiAshu 8y ago
Thanks for the positive feedback :) We're not as cheap as online Udemy courses due to high touch instruction at a physical campus. Though we are substantially undercutting traditional bachelor's degrees on cost. Students will on average pay ~$100k for their degree, but because they enter the workforce 2 years sooner they also have $200k more earnings than their peers (pre-tax/tuition). From a net-worth standpoint, this ends up being comparable to getting a full ride at a 4 year institution.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  > Students will on average pay ~$100k for their degree, but because they enter the workforce 2 years sooner they also have $200k more earnings than their peers (pre-tax/tuition). From a net-worth standpoint, this ends up being comparable to getting a full ride at a 4 year institution. Perhaps avoid going into specifics next time. Is it true to say that earlier graduation makes it cheaper? Yes. Is it true to say that a graduate can gain additional work experience while others study? Yes. But you went way too far (pre-tax dollars, no cost of living, assumptions about $100K income/year, and equivocating it to a full ride at a normal college). Arguments like that sound like the sales pitches at Phoenix and other sketchy degree programs, and you definitely don't want to be associated with that. $70K/year is what many would pay for in-state including living on campus. It is definitely on the high end (although I don't know if it is more normal in California).
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > $70K/year is what many would pay for in-state including living on campus. A quick check of UCs shows total all-inclusive annual cost estimate for in-state students tend to be $25-35K depending on living situation. (Which includes things like housing and food that getting a degree sooner doesn't actually save that much, if anything, on.)
    - plants 8y ago
      I think they might have meant for all four years of state school on campus, which rings true with me. I went to a state school and lived on campus for four years and it cost me roughly 80k.
  - DesaiAshu 8y ago
    I hear your point. To avoid getting into trouble I'll keep the framing as better than a full tuition scholarship (rather than full ride). It's already a good deal so no need to take risks with marketing :) If you're curious, here's the math I'm using (assuming that our average salary will stay around $95k and long term salary trajectory will map to traditional stats). Since our tuition is a percent of earnings, the math is relatively straightforward: Make School: - Tuition = 20% of 5 years salary = ~1.1x starting salary = $1.1S (assumes 5% annual salary increase) - Living expenses = 4 * annual cost of living = $4L - Earnings = $1.03S * 0.65 * 2 (assumes 35% tax rate, 5% annual salary increase) - Net worth after 4 years = $0.24S - $4L Full Tuition Scholarship: - Tuition = $0 - Living expenses = $4L - Earnings = $0 - Net worth after 4 years = -$4L Full Ride Scholarship: - Tuition = $0 - Living expenses = $0 - Earnings = $0 - Net worth after 4 years = $0 To plug in some numbers, our students' cost of living tends to be ~$1500/mo, while our average starting salary is approximately $95k. - Make School case net worth after 4 years: -$49k - Full tuition case net worth: $-72k - Full ride case net worth: $0 However, this doesn't factor in compounding gains of starting off at a higher salary (http://eagle.gmu.edu/newsroom/843/ http://eagle.gmu.edu/newsroom/843/). The top CS programs in the country (Stanford, MIT) are currently at ~$95k average starting salary, while the overall average is ~$60k. At the point their peers are graduating college, our alums will have a $10k+ higher salary. This difference should compensate for the -$49k difference over a long career. Since tuition and tax rates are both proportional to income, the numbers won't change substantially if salary is lower.
- eksemplar 8y ago
  It worried me a little that you compared yourself to Udemy. Because Udemy is at best a decent look into a little bit of a certain technology, and at worst an amateurish stride through a topic. Maybe it’ll allow you to google program, but it won’t teach you computer science. So I looked over your courses at, https://www.makeschool.com/course-catalog https://www.makeschool.com/course-catalog and I have to ask, but do you really teach computer science? You seem to lack a lot of the fundamentals on how computers, compilers and programming languages actually work, and instead offer a range of introductory courses on specific technologies. Don’t get me wrong. I like applied computer science, we have it in my country as well, as an alternative to the universities and real CS. Such a degree takes 2.5 years, and it makes people very hireable, but it’s not comparable to a real bachelors of computer science. I think you should aim instead, and instead compare yourself to EDX and their free course of CS50x from Harvard. I’d feel a lot more comfortable hiring someone who had completed those courses than someone who had learned React on Udemy. Good luck though, the CS field has room for, and needs more craftsmen, but maybe don’t call it a bachelor of science if you don’t actually teach the science.
- 0x70dd 8y ago
  Sadly, this model won't work for Europe where tuition fees are very low already. I can give you an example with UK, where I did my bachelor at a top 10 university for roughly 10k GBP (i.e. 3k per year). My masters degree at a top 3 university was 6k and it lasted a single year. Would you say that Europe is a target market for you? Have you thought about how you would tackle it?
  - frobozz 8y ago
    Those numbers are massively out of date. Even Warwick (cheapest top-10 university in England and Wales, Scotland is a different story) is at least £6750K per year for UK undergrads. Many universities charge the full £9250 allowed. Granted, that's still considerably less than $100K

jseliger 8y ago

I've taught quite a bit as an adjunct: https://jakeseliger.com/2016/02/25/universities-treat-adjuncts-like-they-do-because-they-can/ https://jakeseliger.com/2016/02/25/universities-treat-adjunc... and also like the idea of taking on higher ed; one school had a sticker price of $25K/year for tuition and paid adjuncts $3.4K/class. Even accounting for discounts against the sticker price, the situation just doesn't add up. Accreditation is an underrated, little-understood barrier to entry in the higher ed industry.

DesaiAshu 8y ago

Thanks for the positive feedback :) We're not as cheap as online Udemy courses due to high touch instruction at a physical campus. Though we are substantially undercutting traditional bachelor's degrees on cost. Students will on average pay ~$100k for their degree, but because they enter the workforce 2 years sooner they also have $200k more earnings than their peers (pre-tax/tuition). From a net-worth standpoint, this ends up being comparable to getting a full ride at a 4 year institution.

Someone1234 8y ago
> Students will on average pay ~$100k for their degree, but because they enter the workforce 2 years sooner they also have $200k more earnings than their peers (pre-tax/tuition). From a net-worth standpoint, this ends up being comparable to getting a full ride at a 4 year institution. Perhaps avoid going into specifics next time. Is it true to say that earlier graduation makes it cheaper? Yes. Is it true to say that a graduate can gain additional work experience while others study? Yes. But you went way too far (pre-tax dollars, no cost of living, assumptions about $100K income/year, and equivocating it to a full ride at a normal college). Arguments like that sound like the sales pitches at Phoenix and other sketchy degree programs, and you definitely don't want to be associated with that. $70K/year is what many would pay for in-state including living on campus. It is definitely on the high end (although I don't know if it is more normal in California).
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > $70K/year is what many would pay for in-state including living on campus. A quick check of UCs shows total all-inclusive annual cost estimate for in-state students tend to be $25-35K depending on living situation. (Which includes things like housing and food that getting a degree sooner doesn't actually save that much, if anything, on.)
  - plants 8y ago
    I think they might have meant for all four years of state school on campus, which rings true with me. I went to a state school and lived on campus for four years and it cost me roughly 80k.
- DesaiAshu 8y ago
  I hear your point. To avoid getting into trouble I'll keep the framing as better than a full tuition scholarship (rather than full ride). It's already a good deal so no need to take risks with marketing :) If you're curious, here's the math I'm using (assuming that our average salary will stay around $95k and long term salary trajectory will map to traditional stats). Since our tuition is a percent of earnings, the math is relatively straightforward: Make School: - Tuition = 20% of 5 years salary = ~1.1x starting salary = $1.1S (assumes 5% annual salary increase) - Living expenses = 4 * annual cost of living = $4L - Earnings = $1.03S * 0.65 * 2 (assumes 35% tax rate, 5% annual salary increase) - Net worth after 4 years = $0.24S - $4L Full Tuition Scholarship: - Tuition = $0 - Living expenses = $4L - Earnings = $0 - Net worth after 4 years = -$4L Full Ride Scholarship: - Tuition = $0 - Living expenses = $0 - Earnings = $0 - Net worth after 4 years = $0 To plug in some numbers, our students' cost of living tends to be ~$1500/mo, while our average starting salary is approximately $95k. - Make School case net worth after 4 years: -$49k - Full tuition case net worth: $-72k - Full ride case net worth: $0 However, this doesn't factor in compounding gains of starting off at a higher salary (http://eagle.gmu.edu/newsroom/843/ http://eagle.gmu.edu/newsroom/843/). The top CS programs in the country (Stanford, MIT) are currently at ~$95k average starting salary, while the overall average is ~$60k. At the point their peers are graduating college, our alums will have a $10k+ higher salary. This difference should compensate for the -$49k difference over a long career. Since tuition and tax rates are both proportional to income, the numbers won't change substantially if salary is lower.
eksemplar 8y ago
It worried me a little that you compared yourself to Udemy. Because Udemy is at best a decent look into a little bit of a certain technology, and at worst an amateurish stride through a topic. Maybe it’ll allow you to google program, but it won’t teach you computer science. So I looked over your courses at, https://www.makeschool.com/course-catalog https://www.makeschool.com/course-catalog and I have to ask, but do you really teach computer science? You seem to lack a lot of the fundamentals on how computers, compilers and programming languages actually work, and instead offer a range of introductory courses on specific technologies. Don’t get me wrong. I like applied computer science, we have it in my country as well, as an alternative to the universities and real CS. Such a degree takes 2.5 years, and it makes people very hireable, but it’s not comparable to a real bachelors of computer science. I think you should aim instead, and instead compare yourself to EDX and their free course of CS50x from Harvard. I’d feel a lot more comfortable hiring someone who had completed those courses than someone who had learned React on Udemy. Good luck though, the CS field has room for, and needs more craftsmen, but maybe don’t call it a bachelor of science if you don’t actually teach the science.
0x70dd 8y ago
Sadly, this model won't work for Europe where tuition fees are very low already. I can give you an example with UK, where I did my bachelor at a top 10 university for roughly 10k GBP (i.e. 3k per year). My masters degree at a top 3 university was 6k and it lasted a single year. Would you say that Europe is a target market for you? Have you thought about how you would tackle it?
- frobozz 8y ago
  Those numbers are massively out of date. Even Warwick (cheapest top-10 university in England and Wales, Scotland is a different story) is at least £6750K per year for UK undergrads. Many universities charge the full £9250 allowed. Granted, that's still considerably less than $100K