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Following Eric Lowe on Quora for a long enough time has taught me that "real-world fighting effectiveness" is the biggest red herring there is when it comes to

Following Eric Lowe on Quora for a long enough time has taught me that "real-world fighting effectiveness" is the biggest red herring there is when it comes to martial arts. You either come out of physical violence alive or you don't, and while training in empty-handed martial arts might save your life, training with a gun is the only realistic self-defense training worth doing. Except, you know, for confidence. And if it's confidence you're after, breaking hard metal files with your bare hands is hard to beat on that front. I really don't think hardly anybody in the developed world is ever going to face a true combat situation where they can actually use their empty-hand skills. It means they couldn't run away, lost their gun, and couldn't find a improvised weapon. The actual military doesn't train it any more other than for confidence. When you train MMA, you're really training for MMA competitions, not for any kind of real-life combat situation, cuz MMA won't help you there. We did do bare-knuckle, few-rules sparring in Merpati Putih and it was legit my favorite thing to do. We hit and got hit hard, but I didn't get near the amount of sparring time I wanted. Even so, I'd have put my MP skills against anybody else's in a typical bar fight. Not now of course, those days are long long gone. My survival strategy these days is to de-escalate, and if that doesn't work, submit, and if that doesn't work, go momma bear and hope I survive.

Balero 8y ago
"You either come out of physical violence alive or you don't, and while training in empty-handed martial arts might save your life, training with a gun is the only realistic self-defense training worth doing." I disagree with this. It can certainly be true if you are in a situation where guns are common (eg. Texas). But the majority of people are in a situation where guns are not available. You should train with what you have available, and for self defense, with what you are likely to have in a normal day. Luckily for us where guns are not available, running away is the best option! "When you train MMA, you're really training for MMA competitions, not for any kind of real-life combat situation, cuz MMA won't help you there." Whilst I don't 100% agree (I think training mma will help a bit), you bring up a really good point. That there is a huge difference to learning to fight for a competition, and learning to fight for self defense. And like you said, de-escalation, and situational awareness, are the best course of action.
- giardini 8y ago
  Balero says>" Luckily for us where guns are not available, running away is the best option!" Its usually the best option even where guns _are_ available (even in Texas). Unless a shooter is an outstanding shot or very close, its hard to shoot a running person. A good rule for some is, if the distance from an active shooter is less than 20 feet and there is nothing between then attack, otherwise run away. FWIW I always carry a knife. See Tueller Drill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
rezz 8y ago
Are you suggesting there are more street fights involving guns (or any weapon) than street fights that do not? I’m not sure what part of the world you live in but in my experience that is not the case (never seen a street fight with a weapon, have seen 40-50 street fights). Spending 10000 hours palm fisiting a piece of steal in a quiet room after working on your breathing for 30 seconds has no practical application in these situations. Spending 10000 hours properly escaping someone fully committed to strangling you while they have you mounted, or better yet preventing that situation from occurring with takedown defense / offense and effective clinching has a variety of practical applications in these situations. (Biased BJJ practitioner)
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  You've seen 40-50 street fights. How many have you been in? I'm not asking you because I think experience in street fights matters for the purpose of the discussion. I'm asking specifically because such experience doesn't matter when it comes to staying out of harm's way. The reason you've never been in a street fight is because you don't seek them out and know how to avoid them. This is not a skill any martial art will teach you and if that's what they are teaching you, you're getting ripped off.
  - mr_overalls 8y ago
    I think you're right - learning to avoid bad situations in general is almost always more valuable than acquiring badass fighting skills. I'll never forget the advice that a Russian ex-military martial arts instructor gave our group of Systema trainees in the late 90s, after a hard day of punching, kicking, bayonet-fighting, etc. Context: someone had asked him a cringey, noob question like, "What's the ultimate, most dangerous technique?" He thought a minute and said, “To train hard makes one safer in all situations. But no technique is perfect, and of course a gun can kill anyone with just this [gestures with a bayonet]. So the best rule to stay safe is this: Don’t go to bad places with bad people.” Dude had a big-ass knife scar on his forearm from Chechnya. He knew about bad people and places.
    - 8y ago
dotancohen 8y ago
You are right about the confidence-building, but wrong about everything else. When I'm walking in a dangerous area, or even a safe area, I always look directly at all who approach in the other direction, from afar. I intentionally look friendly, but ready for a confrontation. Anybody who looks even slightly troublesome gets a head to toe scan, not because I intend to do anything with the information but rather to signal that I'm not going to be an easy victim. Troublemakers, muggers, beggars, prostitutes, pushers are just like you and me: they are looking for an easy job. If you act - not look but act - like you would be difficult to handle then they will look for another victim. Oh, and I should mention that vigilant situational awareness had saved me from many more speeding electric bikes than terrorists. Nice side benefit.
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  I don't see how anything you said contradicted anything I said. My point was that training in any kind of martial arts other than firearm handling is worthless except for confidence building, and you're making that point for me by saying the way you stay safe in the world is by paying attention to your surroundings.

Balero 8y ago

"You either come out of physical violence alive or you don't, and while training in empty-handed martial arts might save your life, training with a gun is the only realistic self-defense training worth doing." I disagree with this. It can certainly be true if you are in a situation where guns are common (eg. Texas). But the majority of people are in a situation where guns are not available. You should train with what you have available, and for self defense, with what you are likely to have in a normal day. Luckily for us where guns are not available, running away is the best option! "When you train MMA, you're really training for MMA competitions, not for any kind of real-life combat situation, cuz MMA won't help you there." Whilst I don't 100% agree (I think training mma will help a bit), you bring up a really good point. That there is a huge difference to learning to fight for a competition, and learning to fight for self defense. And like you said, de-escalation, and situational awareness, are the best course of action.

giardini 8y ago
Balero says>" Luckily for us where guns are not available, running away is the best option!" Its usually the best option even where guns _are_ available (even in Texas). Unless a shooter is an outstanding shot or very close, its hard to shoot a running person. A good rule for some is, if the distance from an active shooter is less than 20 feet and there is nothing between then attack, otherwise run away. FWIW I always carry a knife. See Tueller Drill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

rezz 8y ago

Are you suggesting there are more street fights involving guns (or any weapon) than street fights that do not? I’m not sure what part of the world you live in but in my experience that is not the case (never seen a street fight with a weapon, have seen 40-50 street fights). Spending 10000 hours palm fisiting a piece of steal in a quiet room after working on your breathing for 30 seconds has no practical application in these situations. Spending 10000 hours properly escaping someone fully committed to strangling you while they have you mounted, or better yet preventing that situation from occurring with takedown defense / offense and effective clinching has a variety of practical applications in these situations. (Biased BJJ practitioner)

vinceguidry 8y ago
You've seen 40-50 street fights. How many have you been in? I'm not asking you because I think experience in street fights matters for the purpose of the discussion. I'm asking specifically because such experience doesn't matter when it comes to staying out of harm's way. The reason you've never been in a street fight is because you don't seek them out and know how to avoid them. This is not a skill any martial art will teach you and if that's what they are teaching you, you're getting ripped off.
- mr_overalls 8y ago
  I think you're right - learning to avoid bad situations in general is almost always more valuable than acquiring badass fighting skills. I'll never forget the advice that a Russian ex-military martial arts instructor gave our group of Systema trainees in the late 90s, after a hard day of punching, kicking, bayonet-fighting, etc. Context: someone had asked him a cringey, noob question like, "What's the ultimate, most dangerous technique?" He thought a minute and said, “To train hard makes one safer in all situations. But no technique is perfect, and of course a gun can kill anyone with just this [gestures with a bayonet]. So the best rule to stay safe is this: Don’t go to bad places with bad people.” Dude had a big-ass knife scar on his forearm from Chechnya. He knew about bad people and places.
  - 8y ago

dotancohen 8y ago

You are right about the confidence-building, but wrong about everything else. When I'm walking in a dangerous area, or even a safe area, I always look directly at all who approach in the other direction, from afar. I intentionally look friendly, but ready for a confrontation. Anybody who looks even slightly troublesome gets a head to toe scan, not because I intend to do anything with the information but rather to signal that I'm not going to be an easy victim. Troublemakers, muggers, beggars, prostitutes, pushers are just like you and me: they are looking for an easy job. If you act - not look but act - like you would be difficult to handle then they will look for another victim. Oh, and I should mention that vigilant situational awareness had saved me from many more speeding electric bikes than terrorists. Nice side benefit.

vinceguidry 8y ago
I don't see how anything you said contradicted anything I said. My point was that training in any kind of martial arts other than firearm handling is worthless except for confidence building, and you're making that point for me by saying the way you stay safe in the world is by paying attention to your surroundings.