4 ms·

You can solve this "if against Z, then what about X"? Think of the user. Does a user benefit from being able to clear a permanent record, long after punishment

by ipsa 8y ago

You can solve this "if against Z, then what about X"? Think of the user. Does a user benefit from being able to clear a permanent record, long after punishment has been served? Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? You can be for the right to be forgotten (and admit to its abuses by politicians and rich hucksters), and against government censorship. This distinction is powerful and therefor often abused: "It is for the good of the people that people can not dissent and revolt". But hard to argue that's the case for EU user protection laws.

pavelrub 8y ago
> Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? Yes. Chinese users will most definitely greatly benefit from having a censored Google in China instead of having just a censored Baido. The only people who won't benefit from it are self entitled 20-year-old Google employees across the ocean who in reality don't give a shit about Chinese people, what they want, or how the average Chinese person feels like, but care a lot about appearing righteous in front of their peers. I find the idea of rich western individuals debating in their exclusive social club the theoretical moral faults of allowing to give the Chinese access to modern technology extremely condescending, and completely disconnected for any actual concern or understanding of real people. It's obvious that all of those people would feel better with themselves if people in China rotted for eternity with their existing tools, as long as they don't have to hear anything about it.
- tracker1 8y ago
  I'm personally against the censoring for china... but I'm also against the results tweaking that Google has done across a lot of its' properties. From defunding conservative channels in YouTube, to creating custom results during the elections in favor or against given candidates. I do find the lack of objections there to be rather hypocritical at best. Doing the right thing isn't always easy. Especially if the wrong thing was helping your POV. The ends to emphatically not justify the means.
- ipsa 8y ago
  Would you like it if technology you created was used in disagreement with your personal moral compass? Or are you completely agnostic about this? Google is free to create a censored and wiretapped search engine app for China. But it should give transparency to everyone contributing to Google (especially those indirectly contributing insights or technology), so they can make an informed decision to work there. > allowing to give the Chinese access to modern technology This is not a problem or an issue. Nobody would have a problem with a Chinese Google Search engine. It is about facilitating spying, potentially contributing damage to free speech and human rights, about organizing the world's information vs. a government controlled propaganda machine. What then is the issue, is that Google is very powerful at search and modern technology. And these systems are thus extra damaging in potential. Slapping Google brand on it carries responsabilities. I do agree this issue has reached the stage of moral outrage. I think this is largely due to the leaks and surprise revelations. Senior Google AI now silent on this issue, yet vocal against Facebook or changing name of conferences. I would hope the outrage would be the same or louder when this happened in the US, not China, so I don't think it is very much a thing of priviledged West vs. poor East.
- panorama 8y ago
  That you called it "Baido" (unless typo) implies to me that you're not Chinese, and with that assumption, your post also reads incredibly condescending. Chinese tech is not subpar across the board, there are very smart people there who choose to work on the problems they choose to work on. Some in support of greater state surveillance, others not. What you have here are American engineers choosing to not work in support of greater state surveillance for another country. Reducing it to thinking that all they're doing is wanting to virtue-signal is condescending. Can you not see that the crux of your post, calling out others' supposed condescension, appears to be projecting a bit?
- ezrast 8y ago
  Your use of the term "condescending" as you paint the picture of elite Western saviors uplifting the poor, rotting Chinese clamoring for access to modern technology is pretty ironic.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
bduerst 8y ago
>Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? This is irrelevant because Dragonfly is about bringing search to China, not handing over access to user data to the government. The Chinese firewall blocks 18k websites. The Right to be Forgotten is censoring way more information than China's firewall because it is allowing government officials to specifically target and censor all information about themselves, not just generic websites.
- delroth 8y ago
  This is very relevant: https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-revealing-plans-to-closely-track-search-users-in-china/ https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-r...

by ipsa 8y ago

pavelrub 8y ago

> Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? Yes. Chinese users will most definitely greatly benefit from having a censored Google in China instead of having just a censored Baido. The only people who won't benefit from it are self entitled 20-year-old Google employees across the ocean who in reality don't give a shit about Chinese people, what they want, or how the average Chinese person feels like, but care a lot about appearing righteous in front of their peers. I find the idea of rich western individuals debating in their exclusive social club the theoretical moral faults of allowing to give the Chinese access to modern technology extremely condescending, and completely disconnected for any actual concern or understanding of real people. It's obvious that all of those people would feel better with themselves if people in China rotted for eternity with their existing tools, as long as they don't have to hear anything about it.

tracker1 8y ago
I'm personally against the censoring for china... but I'm also against the results tweaking that Google has done across a lot of its' properties. From defunding conservative channels in YouTube, to creating custom results during the elections in favor or against given candidates. I do find the lack of objections there to be rather hypocritical at best. Doing the right thing isn't always easy. Especially if the wrong thing was helping your POV. The ends to emphatically not justify the means.
ipsa 8y ago
Would you like it if technology you created was used in disagreement with your personal moral compass? Or are you completely agnostic about this? Google is free to create a censored and wiretapped search engine app for China. But it should give transparency to everyone contributing to Google (especially those indirectly contributing insights or technology), so they can make an informed decision to work there. > allowing to give the Chinese access to modern technology This is not a problem or an issue. Nobody would have a problem with a Chinese Google Search engine. It is about facilitating spying, potentially contributing damage to free speech and human rights, about organizing the world's information vs. a government controlled propaganda machine. What then is the issue, is that Google is very powerful at search and modern technology. And these systems are thus extra damaging in potential. Slapping Google brand on it carries responsabilities. I do agree this issue has reached the stage of moral outrage. I think this is largely due to the leaks and surprise revelations. Senior Google AI now silent on this issue, yet vocal against Facebook or changing name of conferences. I would hope the outrage would be the same or louder when this happened in the US, not China, so I don't think it is very much a thing of priviledged West vs. poor East.
panorama 8y ago
That you called it "Baido" (unless typo) implies to me that you're not Chinese, and with that assumption, your post also reads incredibly condescending. Chinese tech is not subpar across the board, there are very smart people there who choose to work on the problems they choose to work on. Some in support of greater state surveillance, others not. What you have here are American engineers choosing to not work in support of greater state surveillance for another country. Reducing it to thinking that all they're doing is wanting to virtue-signal is condescending. Can you not see that the crux of your post, calling out others' supposed condescension, appears to be projecting a bit?
ezrast 8y ago
Your use of the term "condescending" as you paint the picture of elite Western saviors uplifting the poor, rotting Chinese clamoring for access to modern technology is pretty ironic.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

bduerst 8y ago

>Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? This is irrelevant because Dragonfly is about bringing search to China, not handing over access to user data to the government. The Chinese firewall blocks 18k websites. The Right to be Forgotten is censoring way more information than China's firewall because it is allowing government officials to specifically target and censor all information about themselves, not just generic websites.

delroth 8y ago
This is very relevant: https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-revealing-plans-to-closely-track-search-users-in-china/ https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-r...