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They may be voting no to the Brexit deal purely because they don't agree with it. But you are painting this as a binary situation of 'The Deal' vs No deal. The

They may be voting no to the Brexit deal purely because they don't agree with it. But you are painting this as a binary situation of 'The Deal' vs No deal. There is a third option, withdrawing notice to leave. Parliament can choose to remain without any kind of referendum. In fact there was a case heard by the ECJ today to clarify this very fact. The UK's option to remain was undisputed, and the remaining legal arguments are simply over whether the remaining 27 states have to agree or not. The ruling is due at a later date.

jstanley 8y ago
Fancy that. Group of people who don't want a decision to go through got together and decided that there won't be any punishment if the decision doesn't go through.
- jimnotgym 8y ago
  > punishment What on earth are you talking about?
  - jstanley 8y ago
    Presumably the only way the ECJ can enforce any of its rulings is by some sort of punishment if you don't agree with what they suggest?
    - jimnotgym 8y ago
      The ECJ is ruling on whether the EU members can stop the UK withdrawing it's notice. The EU members will of course be bound by this, if Britain withdraws it's notice to leave it will still be in the EU so of course it will be bound. You have a habit of jumping on these EU threads j? It feels like trolling to me.
      - jstanley 8y ago
        The reason I comment a lot in these threads is because lots of other people post things in these threads that appear (to me) obviously wrong. There seems to be this notion that governments are what makes the world go round, and people going about their daily lives do so only by the governments' blessings. I don't believe that is the way the world works, or is even a useful way to model how the world works. I believe the world works by individuals going about their daily business, and government in practice tends to just get in the way, slow things down, and make things more expensive. I believe that a reduction of government (by leaving the EU, abolishing tariffs, abolishing immigration restrictions, etc.) is obviously the right thing to do. I am not trolling.
        OscarCunningham 8y ago
        I largely share that point of view, but I view leaving the EU as a bad thing since I think it's extremely unlikely that the UK parliment will unilaterally abolish tariffs after we leave. We're likely to end up with more tariffs than when we started. Brexit is a step towards the global optimum, but we're going to get stuck at a local pessimum.
        ngcc_hk 8y ago
        Sometimes yes sometimes no in general. If government of uk is so easy there is no politics. Also if you just say government, think china. 1/5 humanity. No. Government can be very powerful. But even there it could be sometimes help sometimes in the way. Politics is hard. Democracy especially you can have variety within like a federal system (Scots and north i is a bit different from England not sure wales) is good. Life is hard to analysis even one person. For millions. You can believe what you want. But look at facts and read situation and change course. And make mistakes all the time. Wonder whether is an option to remain. Planned exit or no deal seemed more realistic.
        jimnotgym 8y ago
        > abolishing tariffs Like by having a single market and customs union? Many FTA. Abolishing tariffs is what the EU does. 1 standard, no tariff, less government. >abolishing immigration restrictions Free movement of labour is one of the four freedoms of the EU. The main reason Teresa May is citing for leaving the single market is so she can increase immigration restrictions The EU does not increase government. It sets common standards that mean trade is much easier, and encourage the rest of the world to abide by those common standards and to enjoy the same freedoms. Instead of every country having customs rules with each other, a country outside the EU can make a deal with one authority and then trade with all of the countries. Chile is a good example. I imported from Chile in my last job. It was a doddle, because Chile have a FT deal. I apply Common Customs Tariffs of 0. Before the EU a small South American producer would have had to have worked out a deal with each of the 27 states, each with their own standards. If you want to license medicines in the EU, one process covers the whole EU. That is less government! If you want to sell electronics, again the CE mark covers all of Europe and many other countries. If you match EU standards in any area you get equivalent treatment to a local producer. That is less government. The UK is working out how it is going to replace all of those agencies with new ones. That is more government doing the exact same thing. On the contrary, all I hear about on the news about the US trade is about Trump and his trade war with China (this time). When he tried the same with the EU, he was dealing with a much larger market for US goods, and the EU took the sting out of it. Lower tariffs and less government. I cannot for the life of me see how having more independent nation states with their own trade deals will create anything other than more different tariffs, protectionist regimes and more government.
- simonh 8y ago
  What would anyone be punished for?
Findeton 8y ago
That's a technical possibility. But in reality, MPs just don't have the incentives to do that. They just wouldn't get elected next time. It's unthinkable that the UK would choose to remain without a referendum. And the thing is that as of now, a referendum (and I'm not even saying what should be asked there) is also not a politically viable option.

jstanley 8y ago

Fancy that. Group of people who don't want a decision to go through got together and decided that there won't be any punishment if the decision doesn't go through.

jimnotgym 8y ago
> punishment What on earth are you talking about?
- jstanley 8y ago
  Presumably the only way the ECJ can enforce any of its rulings is by some sort of punishment if you don't agree with what they suggest?
  - jimnotgym 8y ago
    The ECJ is ruling on whether the EU members can stop the UK withdrawing it's notice. The EU members will of course be bound by this, if Britain withdraws it's notice to leave it will still be in the EU so of course it will be bound. You have a habit of jumping on these EU threads j? It feels like trolling to me.
    - jstanley 8y ago
      The reason I comment a lot in these threads is because lots of other people post things in these threads that appear (to me) obviously wrong. There seems to be this notion that governments are what makes the world go round, and people going about their daily lives do so only by the governments' blessings. I don't believe that is the way the world works, or is even a useful way to model how the world works. I believe the world works by individuals going about their daily business, and government in practice tends to just get in the way, slow things down, and make things more expensive. I believe that a reduction of government (by leaving the EU, abolishing tariffs, abolishing immigration restrictions, etc.) is obviously the right thing to do. I am not trolling.
      - OscarCunningham 8y ago
        I largely share that point of view, but I view leaving the EU as a bad thing since I think it's extremely unlikely that the UK parliment will unilaterally abolish tariffs after we leave. We're likely to end up with more tariffs than when we started. Brexit is a step towards the global optimum, but we're going to get stuck at a local pessimum.
      - ngcc_hk 8y ago
        Sometimes yes sometimes no in general. If government of uk is so easy there is no politics. Also if you just say government, think china. 1/5 humanity. No. Government can be very powerful. But even there it could be sometimes help sometimes in the way. Politics is hard. Democracy especially you can have variety within like a federal system (Scots and north i is a bit different from England not sure wales) is good. Life is hard to analysis even one person. For millions. You can believe what you want. But look at facts and read situation and change course. And make mistakes all the time. Wonder whether is an option to remain. Planned exit or no deal seemed more realistic.
      - jimnotgym 8y ago
        > abolishing tariffs Like by having a single market and customs union? Many FTA. Abolishing tariffs is what the EU does. 1 standard, no tariff, less government. >abolishing immigration restrictions Free movement of labour is one of the four freedoms of the EU. The main reason Teresa May is citing for leaving the single market is so she can increase immigration restrictions The EU does not increase government. It sets common standards that mean trade is much easier, and encourage the rest of the world to abide by those common standards and to enjoy the same freedoms. Instead of every country having customs rules with each other, a country outside the EU can make a deal with one authority and then trade with all of the countries. Chile is a good example. I imported from Chile in my last job. It was a doddle, because Chile have a FT deal. I apply Common Customs Tariffs of 0. Before the EU a small South American producer would have had to have worked out a deal with each of the 27 states, each with their own standards. If you want to license medicines in the EU, one process covers the whole EU. That is less government! If you want to sell electronics, again the CE mark covers all of Europe and many other countries. If you match EU standards in any area you get equivalent treatment to a local producer. That is less government. The UK is working out how it is going to replace all of those agencies with new ones. That is more government doing the exact same thing. On the contrary, all I hear about on the news about the US trade is about Trump and his trade war with China (this time). When he tried the same with the EU, he was dealing with a much larger market for US goods, and the EU took the sting out of it. Lower tariffs and less government. I cannot for the life of me see how having more independent nation states with their own trade deals will create anything other than more different tariffs, protectionist regimes and more government.
simonh 8y ago
What would anyone be punished for?

Findeton 8y ago

That's a technical possibility. But in reality, MPs just don't have the incentives to do that. They just wouldn't get elected next time. It's unthinkable that the UK would choose to remain without a referendum. And the thing is that as of now, a referendum (and I'm not even saying what should be asked there) is also not a politically viable option.