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> It just means that all people are equally worth, not to some utility function, but absolutely as human beings. In order to believe that worth can be determin

> It just means that all people are equally worth, not to some utility function, but absolutely as human beings. In order to believe that worth can be determined independent of a utility function, you need a standard of absolute worth. Even religious statements of worth are based on utility to the deity. Biological statements of worth regard utility toward the population or ecosystem. I can't think of a non-utilitarian standard of worth that isn't arbitrary, can you?

coldtea 8y ago
>In order to believe that worth can be determined independent of a utility function, you need a standard of absolute worth Or you can just dispense with the notion of worth of a person as person altogether -- then you don't need to "determine" anything. That's what the "equal" part means in that sentence: don't try to determine". You can determine the skills of a surgeon, the education of a scholar, the speed of an athlete, the voice of an actor, the coding skills of a developer, etc. But you should not try to determine the worth of a person as person. That is, when you don't care to measure something something specific, you should not consider someone inferior. >Even religious statements of worth are based on utility to the deity. Not really, at least not in the religions I've known. At least in (non-protestant) christianity people have absolute utility.
- hirundo 8y ago
  > At least in (non-protestant) christianity people have absolute utility. Christianity allocates some souls to hell and others to heaven. Isn't that an expression of differential utility to God's purpose? > But you should not try to determine the worth of a person as person I agree that should usually be the case before the law, and in that context we should generally pretend that all people are created equal. But for most other purposes it is valuable to determine individual fitness for that purpose. And there are few purposes for which that fitness is uniform.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >Christianity allocates some souls to hell and others to heaven. Isn't that an expression of differential utility to God's purpose? That's not all of Christianity. In the orthodox church for example, there's no hell even -- it's how a person perceives eternity without God, said distance from God based on their own predisposition (or tendency), out of their own free will. "Hell" in that sense is not some place, nor does it have actual fires and other BS folk iconography, it's a kind of regret: > . . . those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God . . . But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (Saint Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises). > According to the saints, the “fire” that will consume sinners at the coming of the Kingdom of God is the same “fire” that will shine with splendor in the saints. It is the “fire” of God’s love; the “fire” of God Himself who is Love. “For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12.29) who “dwells in unapproachable light” (1 Tim 6.16). For those who love God and who love all creation in Him, the “consuming fire” of God will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. For those who do not love God, and who do not love at all, this same “consuming fire” will be the cause of their “weeping” and their “gnashing of teeth.” > Thus it is the Church’s spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God’s splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light. https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/spirituality/the-kingdom-of-heaven/heaven-and-hell https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/spirituality/th...

coldtea 8y ago

>In order to believe that worth can be determined independent of a utility function, you need a standard of absolute worth Or you can just dispense with the notion of worth of a person as person altogether -- then you don't need to "determine" anything. That's what the "equal" part means in that sentence: don't try to determine". You can determine the skills of a surgeon, the education of a scholar, the speed of an athlete, the voice of an actor, the coding skills of a developer, etc. But you should not try to determine the worth of a person as person. That is, when you don't care to measure something something specific, you should not consider someone inferior. >Even religious statements of worth are based on utility to the deity. Not really, at least not in the religions I've known. At least in (non-protestant) christianity people have absolute utility.

hirundo 8y ago
> At least in (non-protestant) christianity people have absolute utility. Christianity allocates some souls to hell and others to heaven. Isn't that an expression of differential utility to God's purpose? > But you should not try to determine the worth of a person as person I agree that should usually be the case before the law, and in that context we should generally pretend that all people are created equal. But for most other purposes it is valuable to determine individual fitness for that purpose. And there are few purposes for which that fitness is uniform.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Christianity allocates some souls to hell and others to heaven. Isn't that an expression of differential utility to God's purpose? That's not all of Christianity. In the orthodox church for example, there's no hell even -- it's how a person perceives eternity without God, said distance from God based on their own predisposition (or tendency), out of their own free will. "Hell" in that sense is not some place, nor does it have actual fires and other BS folk iconography, it's a kind of regret: > . . . those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God . . . But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (Saint Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises). > According to the saints, the “fire” that will consume sinners at the coming of the Kingdom of God is the same “fire” that will shine with splendor in the saints. It is the “fire” of God’s love; the “fire” of God Himself who is Love. “For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12.29) who “dwells in unapproachable light” (1 Tim 6.16). For those who love God and who love all creation in Him, the “consuming fire” of God will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. For those who do not love God, and who do not love at all, this same “consuming fire” will be the cause of their “weeping” and their “gnashing of teeth.” > Thus it is the Church’s spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God’s splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light. https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/spirituality/the-kingdom-of-heaven/heaven-and-hell https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/spirituality/th...