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I stopped reading when it implies software engineers are not real engineers.

tejassanap 8y ago
It meant, engineers who work on problems related to physics.
C1sc0cat 8y ago
Its a Joke "real" programmers write billing systems and nuke simulations in Fortran :-) I have work on both in Fortran - if you consider a Fast Breeder a mommy bomb
kilo_bravo_3 8y ago
Real engineers are liable if their output fails. What is one of the first statements made in every software license ever written in the history of computing? Civil Engineers: Bridge falls down, PE's stamp is on designs, design faulty, is liable = Real engineer. Software "Engineer": Program fails, money lost. "LOL must be bugz, btw: THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES PROVIDE THE PROGRAM “AS IS” WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION." = not an engineer. Can you imagine if an aerospace engineer submitted the designs for a new turbine engine with an asterix at the bottom of the blueprints saying "this engine design is provided as-is without warranty of any kind either expressed or implied, including, but not limited to whether or not it will blow up in flight"? The programmers for the Space Shuttle program may have been actual engineers, because I'm willing to bet that they submitted documents guaranteeing the performance and operation of the code they wrote. Yep: >NASA knows how good the software has to be. Before every flight, Ted Keller, the senior technical manager of the on-board shuttle group, flies to Florida where he signs a document certifying that the software will not endanger the shuttle. If Keller can’t go, a formal line of succession dictates who can sign in his place. https://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff https://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff So maybe some programmers can be engineers, if they put their money where their mouths are and don't go "lol bugz, didn't buy support contract" if something goes wrong.
- C1sc0cat 8y ago
  If a bridge falls down you blame the contractor :-) This Happened at Dar Al Hadassah when I worked there
  - gknoy 8y ago
    You can certainly blame the builder, but the "real" engineers I've talked to all spoke of traditions like a _ring on their pinky_ so that when they are signing their name to a design, they are reminded (as the ring touches paper) that their signature affects real people's lives, and that both their professional reputation and personal liability might be on the line if they screw it up. If an engineer designs my bridge, and it collapses when more than one car is on it, he can't laugh at me for not giving him a spec that included that requirement. Contrast this with software, where if a database stores plaintext passwords, the programmers are probably protected if there is sufficient documentation that the bosses/customer insisted on it. I'm grateful to have the flexibility of creating effectively magical things that can change easily to meet changing requirements, but I also feel like there will come a time when we will need to have some similar degree of engineering rigor mandated for software.
    - grovesNL 8y ago
      It's beyond traditions in some regions as well. For example, in Canada, the "engineer" title is protected, so anyone using that title must be a registered member of the provincial association (wherever they practice).
    - psds2 8y ago
      Do you think an engineer just sits down, draws your bridge up after some math and then builds it? It takes a team of civil engineers multiple iterations with tests, setbacks, feedback loops etc to get to the final design. Software can also come with the same type of warranty you imply here. I'm reminded of this image https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/sd72mfmj7ety.jpg https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/sd72...
    - C1sc0cat 8y ago
bovermyer 8y ago
Your loss. Aside from that comment, it's a fascinating article. I'm actually going to poke at writing some Fortran now.
Koshkin 8y ago
In theory, software engineers are engineers. In practice, you can't count on that.
komali2 8y ago
"Its users are scientists and engineers; not computer scientists and software engineers, but the real ones. " lol fuck you too, Oleksandr. Maybe this is some good old Ukranian sarcasm wooshing over my head? Great article though.
jurassicfoxy 8y ago
Also professional engineers (who are the only engineers able to use the title "engineer") do P.Eng exams, and must maintain education / practice credits throughout their career. They must also practice as an Engineer in Training and record several years of experience before even applying. So yes, a "real" engineer is quite a lot more involved than new CS grad getting with 1 year experience getting a job as "Senior Software Engineer".

It meant, engineers who work on problems related to physics.

Its a Joke "real" programmers write billing systems and nuke simulations in Fortran :-) I have work on both in Fortran - if you consider a Fast Breeder a mommy bomb

kilo_bravo_3 8y ago

Real engineers are liable if their output fails. What is one of the first statements made in every software license ever written in the history of computing? Civil Engineers: Bridge falls down, PE's stamp is on designs, design faulty, is liable = Real engineer. Software "Engineer": Program fails, money lost. "LOL must be bugz, btw: THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES PROVIDE THE PROGRAM “AS IS” WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION." = not an engineer. Can you imagine if an aerospace engineer submitted the designs for a new turbine engine with an asterix at the bottom of the blueprints saying "this engine design is provided as-is without warranty of any kind either expressed or implied, including, but not limited to whether or not it will blow up in flight"? The programmers for the Space Shuttle program may have been actual engineers, because I'm willing to bet that they submitted documents guaranteeing the performance and operation of the code they wrote. Yep: >NASA knows how good the software has to be. Before every flight, Ted Keller, the senior technical manager of the on-board shuttle group, flies to Florida where he signs a document certifying that the software will not endanger the shuttle. If Keller can’t go, a formal line of succession dictates who can sign in his place. https://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff https://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff So maybe some programmers can be engineers, if they put their money where their mouths are and don't go "lol bugz, didn't buy support contract" if something goes wrong.

C1sc0cat 8y ago
If a bridge falls down you blame the contractor :-) This Happened at Dar Al Hadassah when I worked there
- gknoy 8y ago
  You can certainly blame the builder, but the "real" engineers I've talked to all spoke of traditions like a _ring on their pinky_ so that when they are signing their name to a design, they are reminded (as the ring touches paper) that their signature affects real people's lives, and that both their professional reputation and personal liability might be on the line if they screw it up. If an engineer designs my bridge, and it collapses when more than one car is on it, he can't laugh at me for not giving him a spec that included that requirement. Contrast this with software, where if a database stores plaintext passwords, the programmers are probably protected if there is sufficient documentation that the bosses/customer insisted on it. I'm grateful to have the flexibility of creating effectively magical things that can change easily to meet changing requirements, but I also feel like there will come a time when we will need to have some similar degree of engineering rigor mandated for software.
  - grovesNL 8y ago
    It's beyond traditions in some regions as well. For example, in Canada, the "engineer" title is protected, so anyone using that title must be a registered member of the provincial association (wherever they practice).
  - psds2 8y ago
    Do you think an engineer just sits down, draws your bridge up after some math and then builds it? It takes a team of civil engineers multiple iterations with tests, setbacks, feedback loops etc to get to the final design. Software can also come with the same type of warranty you imply here. I'm reminded of this image https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/sd72mfmj7ety.jpg https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/sd72...
  - C1sc0cat 8y ago

bovermyer 8y ago

Your loss. Aside from that comment, it's a fascinating article. I'm actually going to poke at writing some Fortran now.

Koshkin 8y ago

In theory, software engineers are engineers. In practice, you can't count on that.

komali2 8y ago

"Its users are scientists and engineers; not computer scientists and software engineers, but the real ones. " lol fuck you too, Oleksandr. Maybe this is some good old Ukranian sarcasm wooshing over my head? Great article though.

jurassicfoxy 8y ago

Also professional engineers (who are the only engineers able to use the title "engineer") do P.Eng exams, and must maintain education / practice credits throughout their career. They must also practice as an Engineer in Training and record several years of experience before even applying. So yes, a "real" engineer is quite a lot more involved than new CS grad getting with 1 year experience getting a job as "Senior Software Engineer".