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I think we can all agree that fraud does not increase the general amount of wealth. That's why it's illegal. As for your last paragraph, it sounds like you are

by neilk 16y ago

I think we can all agree that fraud does not increase the general amount of wealth. That's why it's illegal. As for your last paragraph, it sounds like you are in the grip of that "money as debt" video, or worse, the labor theory of value. You should also look at some more mainstream economics before you decide that the whole thing is fraud. I'm sympathetic to your argument that some financial products are just "hacks", and don't generate value, but just like real hacking, there's another side. Such "hacks" expose weaknesses, inefficiencies, and irrationality. Now, there are some who believe in the efficient market theory, and thus believe that ANY self-interested economic action leads to an increase of information (and thus wealth) for everybody else. That's actually been pretty much empirically disproven, so it's true that there are certain financial "hacks" that are never socially beneficial. However, I would caution you not to conclude that the whole thing is just a drain on society.

hasenj 16y ago
> it sounds like you are in the grip of that "money as debt" video I wouldn't word it that way. The movie, whether you like it or not, raises some valid points, and I think calling the whole system a debt-money system is a good thing, at least it raises awareness about it's nature. Most people don't have the slightest clue how money is made. Not only that; but I think it's more accurate, factual, and honest to call it debt-money rather than "fractional reserve banking". Fractional reserve can have a different meaning: it could mean you lend out most of what people entrust you with. That would still be a fractional reserve, because you're only keeping a fraction of what's in your trust. > but just like real hacking, there's another side. Such "hacks" expose weaknesses, inefficiencies, and irrationality. These hacks are legalized and institutionalized, it's basically a whole industry. It's very main stream stuff.
RobGR 16y ago
"or worse, the labor theory of value" What do you mean by that ? Adam Smith would say wealth is stored labor, and that seems to me as good a definition as any.

by neilk 16y ago

hasenj 16y ago

> it sounds like you are in the grip of that "money as debt" video I wouldn't word it that way. The movie, whether you like it or not, raises some valid points, and I think calling the whole system a debt-money system is a good thing, at least it raises awareness about it's nature. Most people don't have the slightest clue how money is made. Not only that; but I think it's more accurate, factual, and honest to call it debt-money rather than "fractional reserve banking". Fractional reserve can have a different meaning: it could mean you lend out most of what people entrust you with. That would still be a fractional reserve, because you're only keeping a fraction of what's in your trust. > but just like real hacking, there's another side. Such "hacks" expose weaknesses, inefficiencies, and irrationality. These hacks are legalized and institutionalized, it's basically a whole industry. It's very main stream stuff.

RobGR 16y ago

"or worse, the labor theory of value" What do you mean by that ? Adam Smith would say wealth is stored labor, and that seems to me as good a definition as any.