7 ms·

> Pretty bold It's interesting you would label this as such. In what is ostensibly the best country in the world, and a massive proponent of free speech and h

by grecy 8y ago

> Pretty bold It's interesting you would label this as such. In what is ostensibly the best country in the world, and a massive proponent of free speech and human rights, you think it's bold to write a letter on the internet to your extraordinarily famous employer? If it's considered bold in the USA involving Google, I shudder to think about anyone else doing this anywhere else. In the year 2018 I would hope it's very much not bold to do so.

lostgame 8y ago
>> a massive proponent of free speech and human rights Yeah, 'human rights', right, so that's why they're so[1] focused[2] on separating families[3], and I guess 'free speech' is what allows the POTUS to be a racist[4], fear-mongering, corrupt[5] liar[6]? Or is 'free speech' the thing that allows denial[7] of climate change[8] even while California burns to the ground? And I guess with 'human rights' that goes along with the USA's tendency to start senseless[9] wars[10], often ignoring[11] civilian casualites? It seems as though 'make America great again' is almost an open confession that it no longer is, or was. [1] https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-families-separated-parents https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-fa... [2] https://www.npr.org/2018/06/19/621065383/what-we-know-family-separation-and-zero-tolerance-at-the-border https://www.npr.org/2018/06/19/621065383/what-we-know-family... [3] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-ice-raids-separate-midwest-families-20180630-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-ice-raids... [4] https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racism-history https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racism-h... [5] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/opinion/trump-administration-corruption-conflicts.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/opinion/trump-administrat... [6] https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/108885940/factchecking-donald-trumps-lies-is-easy-as-he-tells-the-same-ones-all-the-time https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/108885940/factcheckin... [7] https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/18/opinions/trumps-failure-to-fight-climate-change-sachs/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/18/opinions/trumps-failure-to-fi... [8] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/26/opinion/climate-change-denial-republican.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/26/opinion/climate-change-de... [9] http://theindependent.ca/2018/06/01/why-is-the-united-states-always-fighting-a-war-somewhere/ http://theindependent.ca/2018/06/01/why-is-the-united-states... [10] https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/04/04/is-america-addicted-to-war/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/04/04/is-america-addicted-to-... [11] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-we-ignore-the-civilians-killed-in-american-wars/2011/12/05/gIQALCO4eP_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.cb5e71599161 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-we-ignore-the...
- grecy 8y ago
  Ostensibly is defined as: "As appears or is stated to be true, though not necessarily so; apparently."
- porphyrogene 8y ago
  ‘Ostensibly’ does not mean what you think it means.
  - lostgame 8y ago
    I think, clearly, the larger issue here is the false idea that the USA is a proponent of free speech or human rights. I would certainly never in a million years hope anyone would seriously claim the US to be the greatest country in the world.
    - grecy 8y ago
      > I would certainly never in a million years hope anyone would seriously claim the US to be the greatest country in the world. I am quite certain a significant proportion of Americans genuinely believe it is.
      - balibebas 8y ago
        Argumentum ad populum. Are you really going to generalize as well?
    - majewsky 8y ago
      You're in for a bad surprise. A lot of people were opposed to Trump's "Make America Great Again" claim because the claim insinuates that the US might not be literally the greatest country in the world right now.
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      I hate many things about what the US is becoming--or has always been--but it does have some of the strongest free-speech rights in the world (though less so in recent decades as other nations catch up), and the world's highest public support for freedom of speech. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/freedom-of-speech-country-comparison/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/freedom-of-speech-cou...
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
Publicly calling out your employer is bold anywhere. Perhaps less so in countries like the US where that sort of speech is protected, and in sectors like tech where the speakers are likely to be well-off and not fungible, but doing this sort of thing publicly always puts you at risk of losing your job (for "unrelated performance reasons") and of being quietly blacklisted by future employers (for "poor culture fit" or any other easy excuse).
rifung 8y ago
> In what is ostensibly the best country in the world, and a massive proponent of free speech and human rights, you think it's bold to write a letter on the internet to your extraordinarily famous employer? Free speech only applies to the government though? Your employer is still free to fire you. Sure you won't be put in jail but for most people losing their job still certainly affects their livelihood.
- x220 8y ago
  Free speech is a value, not just a legal right.
AlexCoventry 8y ago
Corporations are explicitly tyrannies. Check out Corporate Confidential for a flavor of what a typical corporate employee could expect for signing a letter like this.

by grecy 8y ago

lostgame 8y ago

>> a massive proponent of free speech and human rights Yeah, 'human rights', right, so that's why they're so[1] focused[2] on separating families[3], and I guess 'free speech' is what allows the POTUS to be a racist[4], fear-mongering, corrupt[5] liar[6]? Or is 'free speech' the thing that allows denial[7] of climate change[8] even while California burns to the ground? And I guess with 'human rights' that goes along with the USA's tendency to start senseless[9] wars[10], often ignoring[11] civilian casualites? It seems as though 'make America great again' is almost an open confession that it no longer is, or was. [1] https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-families-separated-parents https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-fa... [2] https://www.npr.org/2018/06/19/621065383/what-we-know-family-separation-and-zero-tolerance-at-the-border https://www.npr.org/2018/06/19/621065383/what-we-know-family... [3] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-ice-raids-separate-midwest-families-20180630-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-ice-raids... [4] https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racism-history https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racism-h... [5] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/opinion/trump-administration-corruption-conflicts.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/opinion/trump-administrat... [6] https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/108885940/factchecking-donald-trumps-lies-is-easy-as-he-tells-the-same-ones-all-the-time https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/108885940/factcheckin... [7] https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/18/opinions/trumps-failure-to-fight-climate-change-sachs/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/18/opinions/trumps-failure-to-fi... [8] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/26/opinion/climate-change-denial-republican.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/26/opinion/climate-change-de... [9] http://theindependent.ca/2018/06/01/why-is-the-united-states-always-fighting-a-war-somewhere/ http://theindependent.ca/2018/06/01/why-is-the-united-states... [10] https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/04/04/is-america-addicted-to-war/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/04/04/is-america-addicted-to-... [11] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-we-ignore-the-civilians-killed-in-american-wars/2011/12/05/gIQALCO4eP_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.cb5e71599161 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-we-ignore-the...

grecy 8y ago
Ostensibly is defined as: "As appears or is stated to be true, though not necessarily so; apparently."
porphyrogene 8y ago
‘Ostensibly’ does not mean what you think it means.
- lostgame 8y ago
  I think, clearly, the larger issue here is the false idea that the USA is a proponent of free speech or human rights. I would certainly never in a million years hope anyone would seriously claim the US to be the greatest country in the world.
  - grecy 8y ago
    > I would certainly never in a million years hope anyone would seriously claim the US to be the greatest country in the world. I am quite certain a significant proportion of Americans genuinely believe it is.
    - balibebas 8y ago
      Argumentum ad populum. Are you really going to generalize as well?
  - majewsky 8y ago
    You're in for a bad surprise. A lot of people were opposed to Trump's "Make America Great Again" claim because the claim insinuates that the US might not be literally the greatest country in the world right now.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    I hate many things about what the US is becoming--or has always been--but it does have some of the strongest free-speech rights in the world (though less so in recent decades as other nations catch up), and the world's highest public support for freedom of speech. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/freedom-of-speech-country-comparison/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/freedom-of-speech-cou...

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

Publicly calling out your employer is bold anywhere. Perhaps less so in countries like the US where that sort of speech is protected, and in sectors like tech where the speakers are likely to be well-off and not fungible, but doing this sort of thing publicly always puts you at risk of losing your job (for "unrelated performance reasons") and of being quietly blacklisted by future employers (for "poor culture fit" or any other easy excuse).

rifung 8y ago

> In what is ostensibly the best country in the world, and a massive proponent of free speech and human rights, you think it's bold to write a letter on the internet to your extraordinarily famous employer? Free speech only applies to the government though? Your employer is still free to fire you. Sure you won't be put in jail but for most people losing their job still certainly affects their livelihood.

x220 8y ago
Free speech is a value, not just a legal right.

AlexCoventry 8y ago

Corporations are explicitly tyrannies. Check out Corporate Confidential for a flavor of what a typical corporate employee could expect for signing a letter like this.