4 ms·

There are not many Chinese names in the signed letter, and I can fully understand. If you are a Chinese H1B or green card holder, and you signed this letter, it

There are not many Chinese names in the signed letter, and I can fully understand. If you are a Chinese H1B or green card holder, and you signed this letter, it is almost certain the Chinese government will contact your family in China.

imglorp 8y ago
Can confirm, China watches its citizens abroad, closely, and in person sometimes. Their families can be affected, and if they go back home to visit, there can be problems.
- pixl97 8y ago
  >China watches its citizens abroad Now with increased efficiency with Dragonfly technology. Find enemies of the state with our world wide database, US and EU results included. All brought to you by the Alphabet platform.
  - mtrovo 8y ago
    Think about the synergy that this could unlock, Alphabet comes with the citizen tracking service (not malicious, just for ads, obviously) and plug it to their citizen scoring service. Further research could be done on integrating this new dataset with Project Maven, think about the opportunities of engaging only with end users with score below a threshold. Did I see something like this on Black Mirror?
    - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
      You did see something like this on Black Mirror, specifically because Black Mirror wrote the episode based on the Chinese social credit system.
- jjcc 8y ago
  Can confirm your confirm is fabricated from thin air. The difference would be: you might not know you are lying while I do. We are doing the same thing, confirm something not conformable. Theoretically that's lying
  - nil_pointer 8y ago
    You don't know he's lying, you just assume it because he didn't cite a source. It's not the first time I've heard people make his claim, so it might not be baseless.
    - jjcc 8y ago
      Let's leave the topic of Google issue. Did you see my 2nd sentence which implied I was lying? Which almost means making a baseless claim? You assumed that I assume he was lying only because he didn't cite source. That assumption is not correct. Now I can tell you that I originally had 3rd sentence: the 2nd sentence is a lie. I do have solid evidence that he was lying (unintentionally I believe) but it's too difficult to present the evidence.
  - ionised 8y ago
    How can someone not know if they are lying?
  - imglorp 8y ago
    Yes, I witnessed it first hand. 1989, downtown Cleveland, soon after Tiananmen Square. We'd all seen the "tank man" and people were talking about all the dead witnessed by those present (~10k?) versus the official cover story of 300 and denial. So there were protests across the US, including downtown Cleveland, mostly visiting Chinese students from CSU and CWRU, and plenty of horrified locals there to support them. There were a couple of Chinese guys not marching but watching from the edges while people walked past. They both had the same sunglasses, trench coats, and SLR cameras with long lenses, and they were taking pictures of the marchers. If you've ever been in Cleveland in June, this is not appropriate attire for cloudy and windy, so they stood out from the locals. The Chinese on student visas told me they were government, often seen at such events, and they were cataloging Chinese there for later study and reprisals to family or when they returned home.
Aunche 8y ago
Or it's because they would rather access to a censored Google without using a VPN when they visit China. If they really think that Dragonfly is worse than Baidu or Bing, they don't have to use it. This is a classic case of privileged westerners deciding that they know better than the actual residents – a modern day white man's burden. Edit: Flagged for an unpopular view. Hacker news has sunk to a new low. Whatever guideline you think I violated, I guarantee that there are violations of equal magnitude on this thread that are very popular.
- thomastjeffery 8y ago
  These people are making a point to not support Dragonfly. Just because a workaround exists does not mean the problem is solved, or that the workaround will exist forever.
- Jmcdd 8y ago
  >This is a classic case of privileged westerners deciding that they know better than the actual residents >Our opposition to Dragonfly is not about China: we object to technologies that aid the powerful in oppressing the vulnerable, wherever they may be.
netheril96 8y ago
Or that they genuinely hold different views.
- abecedarius 8y ago
  Too bad for the Chinese state. If you try to promote a view by threatening others who might express a different one, I'm not going to weigh that neutrally.
- fzss_ 8y ago
  Or that they understand a censored version of Google is already way better than Baidu, in every sense, information accuracy, ethnically
- scarcely 8y ago
  they hold different views? (they were born in China? they are brainwashed : no they can't possibly hold different views) It's futile to explain yourself to someone if the person will just declare you "brainwashed" if you don't agree with them
  - abecedarius 8y ago
    The thing is, ideas developed without free criticism are like programs without tests. (Only worse, because most programs aren't core to anyone's social identity, which puts extra pressure on the kind of ideas we're talking about here.) I don't want to discount anyone's views, and it's not an all-or-nothing "they're brainwashed, ignore them", but to the extent the views were formed in a censored environment, I genuinely can't weigh them equally as evidence. Censorship is corrosive.
    - scarcely 8y ago
      Well, presumably the ideas we are talking about are political/social/moral views. To base your acceptance/rejection of them, even in part, on your knowledge of their genesis is already quite intellectually lazy. ("John made such and such claim about topic X. When I consider the claim's intrinsic merits I'm not complete sure what I should think, but given these biographical knowledge I have of John I accept/reject the claim" is only acceptable reasoning when X is an empirical topic (say about genetics) but not when it's a moral/political one)
thoughtexplorer 8y ago
What does that mean? What will they say or do to the family?
- TearsInTheRain 8y ago
  China regularly makes people disappear. They are the epitome of a 1984 style totalitarian state: https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/25/asia/fan-bingbing-china-opinion-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/25/asia/fan-bingbing-china-opini...
  - cheeze 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van
jorblumesea 8y ago
To me, that's further proof that this letter is spot on. Why should we ever cooperate with a government that has tens of thousands in concentration camps? It is becoming increasingly unethical to do any business in China.
politician 8y ago
How many Chinese social credit points would the family members of the signer lose if a Googler were to sign this letter?
- balibebas 8y ago
  Let's find out, shall we?
- YayamiOmate 8y ago
  Might be less than by analyzing all their searches... This might not be an exact relation, but my point is that it still may be worthwhile in a longer perspective. Social changes and engineering are nontrivial processes. Boiling frog paradox and such...
- educationdata 8y ago
  https://www.npr.org/2018/11/12/665597190/families-of-the-disappeared-a-search-for-loved-ones-held-in-chinas-xinjiang-regi https://www.npr.org/2018/11/12/665597190/families-of-the-dis... "If you are a Uighur, you automatically lose 10 points," recalls Seytoff. "If you pray? Another 10 points. You've been overseas? Another 10 points. You have relatives overseas? Another 10 points. If you're 50 or below, you're unsafe and you go to a camp." By simply having relatives overseas, you lose 10 points. Now imagine how many points you will lose if you have a relative signed this letter.
  - callmekit 8y ago
    I'm confused by these exact point values. My understanding that the social credit system is not yet implemented, and it's unlikely it will be a number, probably more a set of black lists for different purposes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
oh_sigh 8y ago
another possibility is that a lot of Chinese googlers wanted dragonfly to continue because they think that even a sensored Google search would be beneficial for the people of China.
nil_pointer 8y ago
Your social credit score will plummet too, probably.
redthrowaway 8y ago
Part of it is almost certainly due to fear of reprisal, but consider also that many people of Chinese descent simply may not agree with the letter. I grew up in a majority-Chinese neighbourhood, and one thing you come to realize is that while many Chinese expats have very complicated feelings about the Party, they still tend to be intensely nationalistic and are very sensitive towards perceived slights directed at China. They may not want to sign the letter simply because they're offended by singling out China for opprobrium.

imglorp 8y ago

Can confirm, China watches its citizens abroad, closely, and in person sometimes. Their families can be affected, and if they go back home to visit, there can be problems.

pixl97 8y ago
>China watches its citizens abroad Now with increased efficiency with Dragonfly technology. Find enemies of the state with our world wide database, US and EU results included. All brought to you by the Alphabet platform.
- mtrovo 8y ago
  Think about the synergy that this could unlock, Alphabet comes with the citizen tracking service (not malicious, just for ads, obviously) and plug it to their citizen scoring service. Further research could be done on integrating this new dataset with Project Maven, think about the opportunities of engaging only with end users with score below a threshold. Did I see something like this on Black Mirror?
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    You did see something like this on Black Mirror, specifically because Black Mirror wrote the episode based on the Chinese social credit system.
jjcc 8y ago
Can confirm your confirm is fabricated from thin air. The difference would be: you might not know you are lying while I do. We are doing the same thing, confirm something not conformable. Theoretically that's lying
- nil_pointer 8y ago
  You don't know he's lying, you just assume it because he didn't cite a source. It's not the first time I've heard people make his claim, so it might not be baseless.
  - jjcc 8y ago
    Let's leave the topic of Google issue. Did you see my 2nd sentence which implied I was lying? Which almost means making a baseless claim? You assumed that I assume he was lying only because he didn't cite source. That assumption is not correct. Now I can tell you that I originally had 3rd sentence: the 2nd sentence is a lie. I do have solid evidence that he was lying (unintentionally I believe) but it's too difficult to present the evidence.
- ionised 8y ago
  How can someone not know if they are lying?
- imglorp 8y ago
  Yes, I witnessed it first hand. 1989, downtown Cleveland, soon after Tiananmen Square. We'd all seen the "tank man" and people were talking about all the dead witnessed by those present (~10k?) versus the official cover story of 300 and denial. So there were protests across the US, including downtown Cleveland, mostly visiting Chinese students from CSU and CWRU, and plenty of horrified locals there to support them. There were a couple of Chinese guys not marching but watching from the edges while people walked past. They both had the same sunglasses, trench coats, and SLR cameras with long lenses, and they were taking pictures of the marchers. If you've ever been in Cleveland in June, this is not appropriate attire for cloudy and windy, so they stood out from the locals. The Chinese on student visas told me they were government, often seen at such events, and they were cataloging Chinese there for later study and reprisals to family or when they returned home.

Aunche 8y ago

Or it's because they would rather access to a censored Google without using a VPN when they visit China. If they really think that Dragonfly is worse than Baidu or Bing, they don't have to use it. This is a classic case of privileged westerners deciding that they know better than the actual residents – a modern day white man's burden. Edit: Flagged for an unpopular view. Hacker news has sunk to a new low. Whatever guideline you think I violated, I guarantee that there are violations of equal magnitude on this thread that are very popular.

thomastjeffery 8y ago
These people are making a point to not support Dragonfly. Just because a workaround exists does not mean the problem is solved, or that the workaround will exist forever.
Jmcdd 8y ago
>This is a classic case of privileged westerners deciding that they know better than the actual residents >Our opposition to Dragonfly is not about China: we object to technologies that aid the powerful in oppressing the vulnerable, wherever they may be.

netheril96 8y ago

Or that they genuinely hold different views.

abecedarius 8y ago
Too bad for the Chinese state. If you try to promote a view by threatening others who might express a different one, I'm not going to weigh that neutrally.
fzss_ 8y ago
Or that they understand a censored version of Google is already way better than Baidu, in every sense, information accuracy, ethnically
scarcely 8y ago
they hold different views? (they were born in China? they are brainwashed : no they can't possibly hold different views) It's futile to explain yourself to someone if the person will just declare you "brainwashed" if you don't agree with them
- abecedarius 8y ago
  The thing is, ideas developed without free criticism are like programs without tests. (Only worse, because most programs aren't core to anyone's social identity, which puts extra pressure on the kind of ideas we're talking about here.) I don't want to discount anyone's views, and it's not an all-or-nothing "they're brainwashed, ignore them", but to the extent the views were formed in a censored environment, I genuinely can't weigh them equally as evidence. Censorship is corrosive.
  - scarcely 8y ago
    Well, presumably the ideas we are talking about are political/social/moral views. To base your acceptance/rejection of them, even in part, on your knowledge of their genesis is already quite intellectually lazy. ("John made such and such claim about topic X. When I consider the claim's intrinsic merits I'm not complete sure what I should think, but given these biographical knowledge I have of John I accept/reject the claim" is only acceptable reasoning when X is an empirical topic (say about genetics) but not when it's a moral/political one)

thoughtexplorer 8y ago

What does that mean? What will they say or do to the family?

TearsInTheRain 8y ago
China regularly makes people disappear. They are the epitome of a 1984 style totalitarian state: https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/25/asia/fan-bingbing-china-opinion-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/25/asia/fan-bingbing-china-opini...
- cheeze 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van

jorblumesea 8y ago

To me, that's further proof that this letter is spot on. Why should we ever cooperate with a government that has tens of thousands in concentration camps? It is becoming increasingly unethical to do any business in China.

politician 8y ago

How many Chinese social credit points would the family members of the signer lose if a Googler were to sign this letter?

balibebas 8y ago
Let's find out, shall we?
YayamiOmate 8y ago
Might be less than by analyzing all their searches... This might not be an exact relation, but my point is that it still may be worthwhile in a longer perspective. Social changes and engineering are nontrivial processes. Boiling frog paradox and such...
educationdata 8y ago
https://www.npr.org/2018/11/12/665597190/families-of-the-disappeared-a-search-for-loved-ones-held-in-chinas-xinjiang-regi https://www.npr.org/2018/11/12/665597190/families-of-the-dis... "If you are a Uighur, you automatically lose 10 points," recalls Seytoff. "If you pray? Another 10 points. You've been overseas? Another 10 points. You have relatives overseas? Another 10 points. If you're 50 or below, you're unsafe and you go to a camp." By simply having relatives overseas, you lose 10 points. Now imagine how many points you will lose if you have a relative signed this letter.
- callmekit 8y ago
  I'm confused by these exact point values. My understanding that the social credit system is not yet implemented, and it's unlikely it will be a number, probably more a set of black lists for different purposes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

oh_sigh 8y ago

another possibility is that a lot of Chinese googlers wanted dragonfly to continue because they think that even a sensored Google search would be beneficial for the people of China.

nil_pointer 8y ago

Your social credit score will plummet too, probably.

redthrowaway 8y ago

Part of it is almost certainly due to fear of reprisal, but consider also that many people of Chinese descent simply may not agree with the letter. I grew up in a majority-Chinese neighbourhood, and one thing you come to realize is that while many Chinese expats have very complicated feelings about the Party, they still tend to be intensely nationalistic and are very sensitive towards perceived slights directed at China. They may not want to sign the letter simply because they're offended by singling out China for opprobrium.