4 ms·

Clear containers (now called kata containers) did this more than three years ago, with similar performance numbers (sub 200 ms boot times). It is frustrating, b

Clear containers (now called kata containers) did this more than three years ago, with similar performance numbers (sub 200 ms boot times). It is frustrating, but not surprising, to see the same regurgitated solution receive this much excitement. The firecracker documentation also does not mention the similarity with prior work, oh well. [Not affiliated with Intel in any way---just a long-time proponent of the clear containers approach.]

cleansy 8y ago
After Amazon released its implementation the whole eco system profits, as it creates diversity and buzz around that topic. I think it's great to have (open source) alternatives, especially with the marketing weight of amazons solution entering "playing field". Also: is it clear that kata was first? Three years doesn't sound like they've been miles ahead. [Not affiliated with either side]
talawahtech 8y ago
The FAQs on the Firecracker website[1] specifically address the difference between Firecracker and Kata Containers. The main thrust being that they have decided not to use QEMU and have instead chosen a much more minimal "cloud-native" oriented approach that deliberately abandons certain features in order to gain greater security, efficiency and agility going forward. They also decided to implement it in Rust. Based on the the responses I have seen from non-Amazon employees with experience in this space[2][3][4], it looks like their approach is solid. It should also be noted that one of the main architects of Firecracker was formerly the project lead for QEMU[5][6] 1.https://firecracker-microvm.github.io/#faq https://firecracker-microvm.github.io/#faq 2.https://twitter.com/bcantrill/status/1067326416121868288 https://twitter.com/bcantrill/status/1067326416121868288 3.https://twitter.com/jessfraz/status/1067286831287418881 https://twitter.com/jessfraz/status/1067286831287418881 4.https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower/status/1067294780948832258 https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower/status/10672947809488322... 5.https://twitter.com/jessfraz/status/1067282499938721792 https://twitter.com/jessfraz/status/1067282499938721792 6.https://twitter.com/anliguori/status/1067293131366785024 https://twitter.com/anliguori/status/1067293131366785024
- kraemate 8y ago
  OK I had missed the kata containers blurb in the FAQ, thanks for pointing it out. In fact the tweets make my point: we are all so blinded by new shiny releases that we forget their highly incremental nature.
  - talawahdotnet 8y ago
    Sure, there are going to be some people that are excited by the fact that something seems new or just because it is written in Rust, but jessfraz and bcantrill certainly don't fall into those categories. They have a lot of experience with Operating Systems, VMs and containerization and I don't get the impression that they are eaisily impressed by shiny things. Note that they all work for or worked for AWS competitors (Google/MS/Joyent). I think what is impressive about Firecracker is that they have chosen to reuse a lot of the right things (Linux/KVM/Rust) while also taking a new approach and rethinking important assumptions (No BIOS, no pass-thru, no legacy support, minimal device support). In my opinion the Firecracker FAQs give sufficient mention to parallel projects and tools they have built on like Kata Containers, QEMU and crosvm. The developers certainly seem open to collaboration with those communities. AWS doesn't have much of a track record in terms of leading an Open Source projects so some skepticism is understandable, but I think what we have seen so far is a very good start.
    - steveklabnik 8y ago
      These days, I would expect bcantrill to be excited by something written in Rust :)
      - bcantrill 8y ago
        Hey now -- I'm not quite that easily impressed! ;) This is a problem domain that I have suffered in[1] -- and we have recently moved from KVM to bhyve[2] for several of the same reasons that motivated Firecracker. Not that it hurt that it was in Rust, of course... ;) [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwAfJywzk8o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwAfJywzk8o [2] http://bhyvecon.org/bhyvecon2018-Gwydir.pdf http://bhyvecon.org/bhyvecon2018-Gwydir.pdf
carimura 8y ago
yep. happens all the time. people flock to brand association because it "must be good". halo effect or some other cognitive bias in action.

cleansy 8y ago

After Amazon released its implementation the whole eco system profits, as it creates diversity and buzz around that topic. I think it's great to have (open source) alternatives, especially with the marketing weight of amazons solution entering "playing field". Also: is it clear that kata was first? Three years doesn't sound like they've been miles ahead. [Not affiliated with either side]

talawahtech 8y ago

The FAQs on the Firecracker website[1] specifically address the difference between Firecracker and Kata Containers. The main thrust being that they have decided not to use QEMU and have instead chosen a much more minimal "cloud-native" oriented approach that deliberately abandons certain features in order to gain greater security, efficiency and agility going forward. They also decided to implement it in Rust. Based on the the responses I have seen from non-Amazon employees with experience in this space[2][3][4], it looks like their approach is solid. It should also be noted that one of the main architects of Firecracker was formerly the project lead for QEMU[5][6] 1.https://firecracker-microvm.github.io/#faq https://firecracker-microvm.github.io/#faq 2.https://twitter.com/bcantrill/status/1067326416121868288 https://twitter.com/bcantrill/status/1067326416121868288 3.https://twitter.com/jessfraz/status/1067286831287418881 https://twitter.com/jessfraz/status/1067286831287418881 4.https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower/status/1067294780948832258 https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower/status/10672947809488322... 5.https://twitter.com/jessfraz/status/1067282499938721792 https://twitter.com/jessfraz/status/1067282499938721792 6.https://twitter.com/anliguori/status/1067293131366785024 https://twitter.com/anliguori/status/1067293131366785024

kraemate 8y ago
OK I had missed the kata containers blurb in the FAQ, thanks for pointing it out. In fact the tweets make my point: we are all so blinded by new shiny releases that we forget their highly incremental nature.
- talawahdotnet 8y ago
  Sure, there are going to be some people that are excited by the fact that something seems new or just because it is written in Rust, but jessfraz and bcantrill certainly don't fall into those categories. They have a lot of experience with Operating Systems, VMs and containerization and I don't get the impression that they are eaisily impressed by shiny things. Note that they all work for or worked for AWS competitors (Google/MS/Joyent). I think what is impressive about Firecracker is that they have chosen to reuse a lot of the right things (Linux/KVM/Rust) while also taking a new approach and rethinking important assumptions (No BIOS, no pass-thru, no legacy support, minimal device support). In my opinion the Firecracker FAQs give sufficient mention to parallel projects and tools they have built on like Kata Containers, QEMU and crosvm. The developers certainly seem open to collaboration with those communities. AWS doesn't have much of a track record in terms of leading an Open Source projects so some skepticism is understandable, but I think what we have seen so far is a very good start.
  - steveklabnik 8y ago
    These days, I would expect bcantrill to be excited by something written in Rust :)
    - bcantrill 8y ago
      Hey now -- I'm not quite that easily impressed! ;) This is a problem domain that I have suffered in[1] -- and we have recently moved from KVM to bhyve[2] for several of the same reasons that motivated Firecracker. Not that it hurt that it was in Rust, of course... ;) [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwAfJywzk8o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwAfJywzk8o [2] http://bhyvecon.org/bhyvecon2018-Gwydir.pdf http://bhyvecon.org/bhyvecon2018-Gwydir.pdf

carimura 8y ago

yep. happens all the time. people flock to brand association because it "must be good". halo effect or some other cognitive bias in action.