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I think designers have the very challenging job of "threading the needle" between business considerations and aesthetics. Both can be critical depending on the

I think designers have the very challenging job of "threading the needle" between business considerations and aesthetics. Both can be critical depending on the mission. Unfortunately, "subjective" is often used as a dirty word especially around here where some folks even claim to prefer html stripped of all styling. As you pointed out, there is a lot of thought and sweat that goes into the creation of a typeface. The artistic aspects deserve respect and attention not just from the practitioners but also from their users. I think it's actually a good thing that there's a proliferation of typefaces. If a large company, wanting to avoid millions of dollars in fees to license a typeface, can pay a designer to create a new one that's a good thing. Even if the typeface is created for reasons of brand vanity, it puts someone to work and helps to further the development of typography in general.

falcolas 8y ago
> The artistic aspects deserve respect and attention not just from the practitioners but also from their users. As a developer and sysadmin: Let me know how that works for you. End users will rarely if ever recognize your contributions; will only really notice your contribution when it doesn't work. Sorry.
- dcow 8y ago
  I don’t think your comment is fair mostly because the sysadmin-developer rarely gets to inject aesthetics into their work. When they do, it’s not targeted at end users it’s targeted at other developers. However let me offer a counter anecdote: I love the BSD man pages. Do I think BSD is objectively better than other systems? That’s debatable. But I sure do appreciate the meticulous care with which the BSD manual is maintained. I don’t remember names off the top of my head but I always read the authors section of a BSD man page. If you’re really seeking end user appreciation I’d suggest you try your hand in a relatively more creative context, like writing a user interface. The amount that people care matters enough that a program with fewer features, or that is less stable, or inferior on an “objective” technical level, but with a snazzier, more refined, UI will often be preferred to a technically superior one by users.
- crispyambulance 8y ago
  > Sorry. Thanks, but no need for the phony apology. Typefaces, like other graphic elements, might not be felt to the point of the reader explicitly "recognizing" these contributions. Their impact is real albeit subtle. Designers are aware of that but still work really hard anyway.
  - lobotryas 8y ago
    How can you demonstrate or prove that the impact is “real”?
    - misterbwong 8y ago
      I think you're confusing real with measurable.
      - Green_man 8y ago
        Alternatively, how are we supposed to know it's real if it's not measurable?
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        crispyambulance 8y ago
        A designer's work is, in large part, sensory and thus "measurable". It might very well be subjective and difficult to put into words, but even if one is a strict positivist, that's acceptable.
    - reaperducer 8y ago
      Add a CSS override to someone's browser that forces web sites to display in Comic Sans.
    - simonh 8y ago
      There’s a huge amount of research into this sort of thing funded by advertisers and marketers.
- H1Supreme 8y ago
  I worked in graphic design before I made my way into programming full time. My first job was building desktop apps with a team of programmers with very little design sensibilities. As such, there was lots of plain grey, haphazard interfaces. While they functioned fine, they left nearly everything to be desired aesthetically. I received immediate, positive feedback on my initial contributions. Applying basic design to otherwise "undesigned" interfaces, made a big difference to our users. While that may be an extreme example, it does highlight the need for design. Whether or not someone can "respect" it, as the OP suggests, is debatable. But, the effectiveness of something designed well, isn't.
  - walljm 8y ago
    agreed. the opportunity for huge gains are only available when the starting point is really bad, so then the change is huge and thus obviously recognizable. when you're already operating at near the top of the game, differences are very small. but those small differences are what make the difference between really good and insanely great. and its worth striving for that.
  - lobotryas 8y ago
    The biggest problem is that after this initial, high value work is done the designers are still on the payroll and they still need to demonstrate their value/be doing something. That’s how you get un-necessary UI redesigns and, arguably, custom typefaces. IMHO, designers just don’t know when to stop.
    - dceddia 8y ago
      I think the same could be said of developers. Or, maybe in both cases, it's the companies that don't know when to stop. As a developer, and maybe more relevant here, a user of software, it's kind of surprising how development efforts often continue well past the point of shipping something useful. Now, I'm not arguing that this applies to every software product, or that people should stop at the bare minimum like "welp, we shipped v1, let's pack it up everyone." But this underlying belief that things must be continually improved is very pervasive in software and even moreso in open source. ("Last commit was 6 months ago? This project is obviously dead!") I don't know that anything can or should be done to "fix" this, but it's an interesting observation. Think about it next time there's an "upgrade" that breaks something or changes a workflow you liked. Why did that happen?
- unethical_ban 8y ago
  As a sysadmin and scripter/micro-framework-user: Assuming a UI's design doesn't get in the way of its function, an attractive UI is much more enjoyable to work with than an ugly one.
msla 8y ago
> Unfortunately, "subjective" is often used as a dirty word especially around here where some folks even claim to prefer html stripped of all styling. Because so many other things designers come up with are less readable and less usable in general, even as they protest that their designs have manifold improvements over the previous status quo and that we're just too philistine to see them. I appreciate good styling, I merely disagree that gray text on a gray background with 80% of the screen eaten up by margins qualifies as such.

falcolas 8y ago

> The artistic aspects deserve respect and attention not just from the practitioners but also from their users. As a developer and sysadmin: Let me know how that works for you. End users will rarely if ever recognize your contributions; will only really notice your contribution when it doesn't work. Sorry.

dcow 8y ago
I don’t think your comment is fair mostly because the sysadmin-developer rarely gets to inject aesthetics into their work. When they do, it’s not targeted at end users it’s targeted at other developers. However let me offer a counter anecdote: I love the BSD man pages. Do I think BSD is objectively better than other systems? That’s debatable. But I sure do appreciate the meticulous care with which the BSD manual is maintained. I don’t remember names off the top of my head but I always read the authors section of a BSD man page. If you’re really seeking end user appreciation I’d suggest you try your hand in a relatively more creative context, like writing a user interface. The amount that people care matters enough that a program with fewer features, or that is less stable, or inferior on an “objective” technical level, but with a snazzier, more refined, UI will often be preferred to a technically superior one by users.
crispyambulance 8y ago
> Sorry. Thanks, but no need for the phony apology. Typefaces, like other graphic elements, might not be felt to the point of the reader explicitly "recognizing" these contributions. Their impact is real albeit subtle. Designers are aware of that but still work really hard anyway.
- lobotryas 8y ago
  How can you demonstrate or prove that the impact is “real”?
  - misterbwong 8y ago
    I think you're confusing real with measurable.
    - Green_man 8y ago
      Alternatively, how are we supposed to know it's real if it's not measurable?
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - crispyambulance 8y ago
        A designer's work is, in large part, sensory and thus "measurable". It might very well be subjective and difficult to put into words, but even if one is a strict positivist, that's acceptable.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Add a CSS override to someone's browser that forces web sites to display in Comic Sans.
  - simonh 8y ago
    There’s a huge amount of research into this sort of thing funded by advertisers and marketers.
H1Supreme 8y ago
I worked in graphic design before I made my way into programming full time. My first job was building desktop apps with a team of programmers with very little design sensibilities. As such, there was lots of plain grey, haphazard interfaces. While they functioned fine, they left nearly everything to be desired aesthetically. I received immediate, positive feedback on my initial contributions. Applying basic design to otherwise "undesigned" interfaces, made a big difference to our users. While that may be an extreme example, it does highlight the need for design. Whether or not someone can "respect" it, as the OP suggests, is debatable. But, the effectiveness of something designed well, isn't.
- walljm 8y ago
  agreed. the opportunity for huge gains are only available when the starting point is really bad, so then the change is huge and thus obviously recognizable. when you're already operating at near the top of the game, differences are very small. but those small differences are what make the difference between really good and insanely great. and its worth striving for that.
- lobotryas 8y ago
  The biggest problem is that after this initial, high value work is done the designers are still on the payroll and they still need to demonstrate their value/be doing something. That’s how you get un-necessary UI redesigns and, arguably, custom typefaces. IMHO, designers just don’t know when to stop.
  - dceddia 8y ago
    I think the same could be said of developers. Or, maybe in both cases, it's the companies that don't know when to stop. As a developer, and maybe more relevant here, a user of software, it's kind of surprising how development efforts often continue well past the point of shipping something useful. Now, I'm not arguing that this applies to every software product, or that people should stop at the bare minimum like "welp, we shipped v1, let's pack it up everyone." But this underlying belief that things must be continually improved is very pervasive in software and even moreso in open source. ("Last commit was 6 months ago? This project is obviously dead!") I don't know that anything can or should be done to "fix" this, but it's an interesting observation. Think about it next time there's an "upgrade" that breaks something or changes a workflow you liked. Why did that happen?
unethical_ban 8y ago
As a sysadmin and scripter/micro-framework-user: Assuming a UI's design doesn't get in the way of its function, an attractive UI is much more enjoyable to work with than an ugly one.

msla 8y ago

> Unfortunately, "subjective" is often used as a dirty word especially around here where some folks even claim to prefer html stripped of all styling. Because so many other things designers come up with are less readable and less usable in general, even as they protest that their designs have manifold improvements over the previous status quo and that we're just too philistine to see them. I appreciate good styling, I merely disagree that gray text on a gray background with 80% of the screen eaten up by margins qualifies as such.