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My view is that I don't understand. It looks like you do. Yay! I will try to explain to you why I don't understand. Maybe you can help. Computers are an exten

My view is that I don't understand. It looks like you do. Yay! I will try to explain to you why I don't understand. Maybe you can help. Computers are an extension of our brains. What I think is happening is that people doing a whole bunch of immoral things online: lying, sock-puppeting, and so forth. But there's a not direct person-to-person link where money trades hands and the other person gets screwed. Instead it's much more subtle than that. When you add it all up, yes, we agree, a lot of this looks like fraud to me. But maybe it's fraud in the moral sense and not fraud in the criminal sense? If I tell my Uncle Amit that his new suit looks good on him, even though it doesn't, then goes out and buys a dozen, is that fraud? What if 100 people he doesn't know participate in the same kind of lie only using a lot of different tech? My point is that simple lying is not a crime. So it can't all be a crime. And now I'm back to trying to figure out where the line is. ADD: As I typed this, I noticed that my FB notification went off in one of my browser tabs. I click over -- and FB is notifying me of something it already notified me of. But got me to click! I'm seeing a lot of social sites doing this double-notification stuff. I understand about distributed databases, that there might be a reason for it. But after a while, this starts to look like a whiny, pathetic attempt just to get me back looking at more Facebook. Is that fraud? How about when Facebook both shows more of my stuff and more of the people I interact with to me -- while we're all online together, hoping that we'll start interacting directly -- and staying on FB? There's an enormous amount of this online. FB is only used here as an example. How about when you hellban people and they think they're typing comments into a forum but they're really not? You're directly taking their time and energy away from them by lying. I hate all of this. I'm just not sure it should be a crime.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
> But maybe it's fraud in the moral sense and not fraud in the criminal sense? Yes, that's what I meant. It's not fraud in criminal sense, but it's definitely immoral - and I often find myself wondering, why some of those practices aren't considered legal!fraud? > But there's a not direct person-to-person link where money trades hands and the other person gets screwed. Instead it's much more subtle than that. Sometimes there is. I complain a lot about dishonest ads and telemarketers, because in those cases there's a direct link - a telemarketer manipulates a poor person into buying stuff that they don't need, and that doesn't perform as well as advertised. That person is then left with mostly useless paperweight, less money for their real needs, and a sense of shame that makes it hard to admit they were duped. Yes, I know of such cases first-hand. There are degrees to this, and ultimately, it usually doesn't result in life-threatening problems, but then again me punching you and taking your lunch money also doesn't cause you more harm than hurt feelings and going hungry for the day. Step above that are faked and bribed reviews. Again, one can say it's just noise, but then just imagine a person who needs an appliance, and can't afford to make a bad purchase. All this noise suddenly makes it very likely that whatever they buy will be crap, and they'll get an utterly suboptimal deal. I've been in that situation in the past, and though these days I can afford to pay premium and buy a branded product just to avoid dealing with this bullshit, most people I know can't, and thus shopping is often a lottery of regrets. > My point is that simple lying is not a crime. So it can't all be a crime. And now I'm back to trying to figure out where the line is. Same as I do. It's a hard problem; doubly so if you include enforcability and cost/benefit into calculation. -- Come to think of it, maybe I'm just too sensitive about people's feelings? Maybe I mistakenly want to hold our modern civilization to much higher standards than warranted? Maybe it's still really a jungle, a dog-eat-dog world, and hoping for a society of friendly cooperation is too much?
- DanielBMarkham 8y ago
  Why don't you curse at people when you see them in the street? It's not illegal. Why are we nice to people at all? I keep getting back to morals. We don't do a lot of things because we want to be good people, not because it's illegal. I still don't know where the line is, but I've been convinced for some time that we need a common set of morals to hold ourselves and businesses to online. If nothing else, "The computer should never lie to me" is a good starting point. That is, whatever I perceive the computer to be telling me had better reflect what the programmers know. Anything else is bullshit. (And perhaps illegal)
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    > Why don't you curse at people when you see them in the street? It's not illegal. Why are we nice to people at all? Right? But why do we expect ourselves to be nice, and other people to be nice, in direct interpersonal relationship, but we allow - hell, glorify - being malicious in business setting? > "The computer should never lie to me" is a good starting point. That is, whatever I perceive the computer to be telling me had better reflect what the programmers know. Anything else is bullshit. (And perhaps illegal) I very much like this idea.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

> But maybe it's fraud in the moral sense and not fraud in the criminal sense? Yes, that's what I meant. It's not fraud in criminal sense, but it's definitely immoral - and I often find myself wondering, why some of those practices aren't considered legal!fraud? > But there's a not direct person-to-person link where money trades hands and the other person gets screwed. Instead it's much more subtle than that. Sometimes there is. I complain a lot about dishonest ads and telemarketers, because in those cases there's a direct link - a telemarketer manipulates a poor person into buying stuff that they don't need, and that doesn't perform as well as advertised. That person is then left with mostly useless paperweight, less money for their real needs, and a sense of shame that makes it hard to admit they were duped. Yes, I know of such cases first-hand. There are degrees to this, and ultimately, it usually doesn't result in life-threatening problems, but then again me punching you and taking your lunch money also doesn't cause you more harm than hurt feelings and going hungry for the day. Step above that are faked and bribed reviews. Again, one can say it's just noise, but then just imagine a person who needs an appliance, and can't afford to make a bad purchase. All this noise suddenly makes it very likely that whatever they buy will be crap, and they'll get an utterly suboptimal deal. I've been in that situation in the past, and though these days I can afford to pay premium and buy a branded product just to avoid dealing with this bullshit, most people I know can't, and thus shopping is often a lottery of regrets. > My point is that simple lying is not a crime. So it can't all be a crime. And now I'm back to trying to figure out where the line is. Same as I do. It's a hard problem; doubly so if you include enforcability and cost/benefit into calculation. -- Come to think of it, maybe I'm just too sensitive about people's feelings? Maybe I mistakenly want to hold our modern civilization to much higher standards than warranted? Maybe it's still really a jungle, a dog-eat-dog world, and hoping for a society of friendly cooperation is too much?

DanielBMarkham 8y ago
Why don't you curse at people when you see them in the street? It's not illegal. Why are we nice to people at all? I keep getting back to morals. We don't do a lot of things because we want to be good people, not because it's illegal. I still don't know where the line is, but I've been convinced for some time that we need a common set of morals to hold ourselves and businesses to online. If nothing else, "The computer should never lie to me" is a good starting point. That is, whatever I perceive the computer to be telling me had better reflect what the programmers know. Anything else is bullshit. (And perhaps illegal)
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  > Why don't you curse at people when you see them in the street? It's not illegal. Why are we nice to people at all? Right? But why do we expect ourselves to be nice, and other people to be nice, in direct interpersonal relationship, but we allow - hell, glorify - being malicious in business setting? > "The computer should never lie to me" is a good starting point. That is, whatever I perceive the computer to be telling me had better reflect what the programmers know. Anything else is bullshit. (And perhaps illegal) I very much like this idea.