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Not to mention that Bitcoin has a very low value proposition outside of being a store of value. I can see a crypto economy where Bitcoin backs the value of othe

Not to mention that Bitcoin has a very low value proposition outside of being a store of value. I can see a crypto economy where Bitcoin backs the value of other cryptocurrencies, but it’s not a good first-party currency. It’s a mere store of values nd people don’t really agree that it’s useful to exchange for services. They just see it as useful to hold value. Something like Ethereum, with a real value-proposition, is a more worthwhile cryptocurrency. Basically, I see crypto evolving into pseudo-fiat currencies with some large financial institution (that isn’t a nation-state) ensuring it’s a valuable commodity. I’m just not convinced we can (or should) escape a fiat-like economic system.

bb88 8y ago
I would argue it's not even a store of value anymore with the price tumbling. When you buy bitcoin or ethereum, you get what? A number. I can sell you a number. Better yet, I can sell you a cryptographically signed number if you want. But that itself is just a number. At some point, even something like gold has a certain amount of scarcity. But with crypto, there's no scarcity, even if you can artificially limit the number of coins. One can always just create a new bitcoin alternative... The point is, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that underpins the price of a BTC to anything in the real world.
- yebyen 8y ago
  Yes, but how many of those numbers can you sell at cost? (There is crypto scarcity, who values the random newcoin at the same as some "established coin" Bitcoin or close, older friend coin? I can see that BCH, LTC, BAB, BSV, etc have all not come close to the price of the original BTC. So, "store of value" is obviously wrong, but...)
  - bb88 8y ago
    That's a marketing problem. :) "Each one will be a unique and priceless number using the largest of prime numbers. Each number comes with a genuine certificate of authenticity hand signed with the author's private key..."
    - yebyen 8y ago
      Only the best numbers... I hear you, one must back their best issued numbers with actual software to ensure their value ;) BSV has handcash, honestly that seemed like a great wallet until I realized it wasn't supported by any of my held coins!
      - bb88 8y ago
        My point is that one way to look at bitcoin is that it's nothing more than a marketing scheme. And the "scarcity" in bitcoin is just artificial at best. Yes BTC has scarcity, but cryptocurrency itself has no scarcity, proven by the fact that there are over 1,000 alt coins. And all of those coins are just number generators. Here's another way to illustrate the issue: I have two numbers. 1. The first takes your user id "yebyen" and appends a number to it so that the SHA-256 hash is exactly 0x0. It will take 20 years of processing power on the NSA computers, so it should be worth something to you. 2. The second number is an encrypted location somewhere in the US where I've buried $1000. It will cost you $1010 to acquire it from me. I'll decrypt it for free but it will be worth exactly $0 afterwards. But until then it's worth $1000 and you can give the number to whoever you want to. Which number has a bigger intrinsic value?
        yebyen 8y ago
        Ok, now do traditional fiat money... This is a good metaphor, but it's not perfect. You haven't explained how or why you'll be burying $1000 exactly 21 million times, every 10 minutes until 2140. Or why it becomes worthless immediately upon decryption... nobody can unbury the cash value of an individual Bitcoin, rendering it worthless, but they can be transferred instantly from party to party, which partially funds the ongoing operations of the network. Even Satoshi himself cannot end Bitcoin at this point. Even if he still lives, and has the keys to the large stash of Bitcoin he mined in the beginning, it could be a major market-altering event if he dumped them all at once, but it would likely not be the end of Bitcoin. Sure, it's great marketing, with an extremely long con...
        8y ago

bb88 8y ago

I would argue it's not even a store of value anymore with the price tumbling. When you buy bitcoin or ethereum, you get what? A number. I can sell you a number. Better yet, I can sell you a cryptographically signed number if you want. But that itself is just a number. At some point, even something like gold has a certain amount of scarcity. But with crypto, there's no scarcity, even if you can artificially limit the number of coins. One can always just create a new bitcoin alternative... The point is, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that underpins the price of a BTC to anything in the real world.

yebyen 8y ago
Yes, but how many of those numbers can you sell at cost? (There is crypto scarcity, who values the random newcoin at the same as some "established coin" Bitcoin or close, older friend coin? I can see that BCH, LTC, BAB, BSV, etc have all not come close to the price of the original BTC. So, "store of value" is obviously wrong, but...)
- bb88 8y ago
  That's a marketing problem. :) "Each one will be a unique and priceless number using the largest of prime numbers. Each number comes with a genuine certificate of authenticity hand signed with the author's private key..."
  - yebyen 8y ago
    Only the best numbers... I hear you, one must back their best issued numbers with actual software to ensure their value ;) BSV has handcash, honestly that seemed like a great wallet until I realized it wasn't supported by any of my held coins!
    - bb88 8y ago
      My point is that one way to look at bitcoin is that it's nothing more than a marketing scheme. And the "scarcity" in bitcoin is just artificial at best. Yes BTC has scarcity, but cryptocurrency itself has no scarcity, proven by the fact that there are over 1,000 alt coins. And all of those coins are just number generators. Here's another way to illustrate the issue: I have two numbers. 1. The first takes your user id "yebyen" and appends a number to it so that the SHA-256 hash is exactly 0x0. It will take 20 years of processing power on the NSA computers, so it should be worth something to you. 2. The second number is an encrypted location somewhere in the US where I've buried $1000. It will cost you $1010 to acquire it from me. I'll decrypt it for free but it will be worth exactly $0 afterwards. But until then it's worth $1000 and you can give the number to whoever you want to. Which number has a bigger intrinsic value?
      - yebyen 8y ago
        Ok, now do traditional fiat money... This is a good metaphor, but it's not perfect. You haven't explained how or why you'll be burying $1000 exactly 21 million times, every 10 minutes until 2140. Or why it becomes worthless immediately upon decryption... nobody can unbury the cash value of an individual Bitcoin, rendering it worthless, but they can be transferred instantly from party to party, which partially funds the ongoing operations of the network. Even Satoshi himself cannot end Bitcoin at this point. Even if he still lives, and has the keys to the large stash of Bitcoin he mined in the beginning, it could be a major market-altering event if he dumped them all at once, but it would likely not be the end of Bitcoin. Sure, it's great marketing, with an extremely long con...
        8y ago