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Maybe I should clarify what I mean. I think specialization is useful in some context. Let's say you are a IaaS or PaaS provider of some sort. Then probably your

Maybe I should clarify what I mean. I think specialization is useful in some context. Let's say you are a IaaS or PaaS provider of some sort. Then probably your employees will only work on devops and nothing else. I can see that people would only need special skills then. But then there is no need to rant about how developers don't know the details. Because there are no developers involved. Also if you are working for a cloud provider for example you can't escape installing hardware and maintain physical infrastructure. I am aware of that too. But we are talking about devops in the context of gruntwork. Which is targeting developers/dev teams and then making unsubstantiated claims about those devs' understanding. That's why I say what I say.

zten 8y ago
Are you trying to solve the problems caused by an insufficiently sized ops group? The other posts in this sub-thread imply devs are going to make a destructive mess of your whole system architecture, but I find myself blocked on more mundane things like being unable to fix deployments or builds, or toy around with a new Amazon service in dev because every new service requires new IAM roles and guess who exclusively owns that ability?
- fogetti 8y ago
  If I read it right what you mean than probably we are on the same side. Yes, the problem you described is the exact problem I am trying to prevent in every organization that I join and I actively call out outdated development/managing practices and shame them/blame them. People who propose that managing their precious infrastructure cannot be bestowed on those inferior developers are the real hindrance to any business which want to go forward fast. They simply don't realize that the lack of decentralization of project management and lack of empowering teams creates a terrible communication overhead and grotesque, half baked solutions.
  - Groxx 8y ago
    grotesque, half baked workarounds are among the most long-term damaging things I've seen, yea. nobody understands them, so they limp along until they take other things down with them.

zten 8y ago

Are you trying to solve the problems caused by an insufficiently sized ops group? The other posts in this sub-thread imply devs are going to make a destructive mess of your whole system architecture, but I find myself blocked on more mundane things like being unable to fix deployments or builds, or toy around with a new Amazon service in dev because every new service requires new IAM roles and guess who exclusively owns that ability?

fogetti 8y ago
If I read it right what you mean than probably we are on the same side. Yes, the problem you described is the exact problem I am trying to prevent in every organization that I join and I actively call out outdated development/managing practices and shame them/blame them. People who propose that managing their precious infrastructure cannot be bestowed on those inferior developers are the real hindrance to any business which want to go forward fast. They simply don't realize that the lack of decentralization of project management and lack of empowering teams creates a terrible communication overhead and grotesque, half baked solutions.
- Groxx 8y ago
  grotesque, half baked workarounds are among the most long-term damaging things I've seen, yea. nobody understands them, so they limp along until they take other things down with them.