5 ms·

Rich Hickey has given so much to the world of software and systems design. The value exchange has most likely not been reciprocal. Nor has it been sufficiently

Rich Hickey has given so much to the world of software and systems design. The value exchange has most likely not been reciprocal. Nor has it been sufficiently respectful, based on this message. People like Rich that give so much are rare. And people that understand how to respectfully recognize that seem to be becoming more rare. Of course, one can remember that life is not fair, and people are often shitty even without being conscious of it, and that Rich has freely chosen to pursue this path. But this leads me to a few questions: If you agree with what I have written above, and what Rich has written in this message, then how can we tip the scales just a little bit further towards respect and reciprocation? What kind of gestures, gifts, and generosities do you think are appropriate? What improved efforts to educate consumers of open source software would be effective? Further still, what kind of culture do we want?

davidscolgan 8y ago
One that you can certainly do is to be one of the voices of positivity and gratitude. If I enjoy or benefit from something someone has released into the world, I've started trying to send them an email of thanks. Many times I've gotten responses back, and they are always really grateful for the support. As a hopeful creator with a small but growing following, I've gotten a few of these myself and they really are motivating. I generally make it a point to never criticize anyone online, since they probably know everything they are doing wrong acutely well and don't need me to tell them again.
toyg 8y ago
Python is currently adding a “thanks” command to their package installer pip. There are efforts to wire pip to monetary rewards. I believe that’s the right direction: identify where the rubber hits the road most of the time, and insert positivity and gratefulness.
- black-tea 8y ago
  This was actually an idea proposed by RMS probably 20 years ago, but I think he was talking about music. Essentially it's the busking model. The key is making that small donation extremely easy to give. And also to get big corporations to press that button.
brianpgordon 8y ago
It seems strange to me that you're so concerned with how we should try to be more respectful to Rich given the querulous and disdainful tone of his post.
- cellularmitosis 8y ago
  I didn’t read disdain at all, so I’m interested in which parts tickled your disdain detector.
  - brianpgordon 8y ago
    Mainly: > As a user of something open source you are not thereby entitled to anything at all. You are not entitled to contribute. You are not entitled to features. You are not entitled to the attention of others. You are not entitled to having value attached to your complaints. You are not entitled to this explanation. Also see my response on the gist itself: https://gist.github.com/richhickey/1563cddea1002958f96e7ba9519972d9#gistcomment-2769461 https://gist.github.com/richhickey/1563cddea1002958f96e7ba95... Feel free to use my HN comment as an upvote/downvote proxy since gist doesn't support upthumbs/downthumbs on comments.
    - firepoet 8y ago
      Thanks for being one of the few voices of humanity in this exchange. This whole situation just feels.. icky.. to me. I wish I knew what long term effects Rich's statement will have on the community, but I can't help but think that it will probably verge towards the opposite of embracing diverse viewpoints. That makes me quite sad.
      - village-idiot 8y ago
        Rich is very quick to escalate from “I feel X about action Y” to “you are Z”, where Z is negative. Example, people are frustrated about how Rich runs his project. They are expressing how they feel about Rich’s actions, which is fair. Rich is under no obligation to change, but Rich’s response is to call people entitled. This is an attack against the person, not against the action, and it’s a chilling escalation. Also, the fans cheer him on, which is gross.
marcus_holmes 8y ago
maybe a "c-list" amendment to the licence terms? Like "everyone can freely use and modify this, except the people listed in appendix C, who are specifically prohibited from using any part of this code for any purpose whatsoever". If you get too shitty at the maintainers, you get added to the C-list, and get to take your shitty attitude somewhere else...
- village-idiot 8y ago
  Petty.
  - marcus_holmes 8y ago
    yeah, I get that. But in any other area of life, if someone is being a complete dick to you, then you can cut them out of your life. Why can't open source maintainer?
    - village-idiot 8y ago
      It’s a bad idea to get into pissing matches with shitty people. It’s bad for your mental health and it makes you look like a child. Ban toxic people from the mailing lists, I am all for that, but stop giving them drama and attention.
      - marcus_holmes 8y ago
        fair point
andyfingerhut 8y ago
If you want to send Rich a little bit of money, and get some swag, you can buy it here: https://clojure.org/community/swag https://clojure.org/community/swag The far more important and long-reaching gestures would be: expressions of thanks, and standing up for creators whenever unwarranted demands are made upon them.

davidscolgan 8y ago

One that you can certainly do is to be one of the voices of positivity and gratitude. If I enjoy or benefit from something someone has released into the world, I've started trying to send them an email of thanks. Many times I've gotten responses back, and they are always really grateful for the support. As a hopeful creator with a small but growing following, I've gotten a few of these myself and they really are motivating. I generally make it a point to never criticize anyone online, since they probably know everything they are doing wrong acutely well and don't need me to tell them again.

toyg 8y ago

Python is currently adding a “thanks” command to their package installer pip. There are efforts to wire pip to monetary rewards. I believe that’s the right direction: identify where the rubber hits the road most of the time, and insert positivity and gratefulness.

black-tea 8y ago
This was actually an idea proposed by RMS probably 20 years ago, but I think he was talking about music. Essentially it's the busking model. The key is making that small donation extremely easy to give. And also to get big corporations to press that button.

brianpgordon 8y ago

It seems strange to me that you're so concerned with how we should try to be more respectful to Rich given the querulous and disdainful tone of his post.

cellularmitosis 8y ago
I didn’t read disdain at all, so I’m interested in which parts tickled your disdain detector.
- brianpgordon 8y ago
  Mainly: > As a user of something open source you are not thereby entitled to anything at all. You are not entitled to contribute. You are not entitled to features. You are not entitled to the attention of others. You are not entitled to having value attached to your complaints. You are not entitled to this explanation. Also see my response on the gist itself: https://gist.github.com/richhickey/1563cddea1002958f96e7ba9519972d9#gistcomment-2769461 https://gist.github.com/richhickey/1563cddea1002958f96e7ba95... Feel free to use my HN comment as an upvote/downvote proxy since gist doesn't support upthumbs/downthumbs on comments.
  - firepoet 8y ago
    Thanks for being one of the few voices of humanity in this exchange. This whole situation just feels.. icky.. to me. I wish I knew what long term effects Rich's statement will have on the community, but I can't help but think that it will probably verge towards the opposite of embracing diverse viewpoints. That makes me quite sad.
    - village-idiot 8y ago
      Rich is very quick to escalate from “I feel X about action Y” to “you are Z”, where Z is negative. Example, people are frustrated about how Rich runs his project. They are expressing how they feel about Rich’s actions, which is fair. Rich is under no obligation to change, but Rich’s response is to call people entitled. This is an attack against the person, not against the action, and it’s a chilling escalation. Also, the fans cheer him on, which is gross.

marcus_holmes 8y ago

maybe a "c-list" amendment to the licence terms? Like "everyone can freely use and modify this, except the people listed in appendix C, who are specifically prohibited from using any part of this code for any purpose whatsoever". If you get too shitty at the maintainers, you get added to the C-list, and get to take your shitty attitude somewhere else...

village-idiot 8y ago
Petty.
- marcus_holmes 8y ago
  yeah, I get that. But in any other area of life, if someone is being a complete dick to you, then you can cut them out of your life. Why can't open source maintainer?
  - village-idiot 8y ago
    It’s a bad idea to get into pissing matches with shitty people. It’s bad for your mental health and it makes you look like a child. Ban toxic people from the mailing lists, I am all for that, but stop giving them drama and attention.
    - marcus_holmes 8y ago
      fair point

andyfingerhut 8y ago

If you want to send Rich a little bit of money, and get some swag, you can buy it here: https://clojure.org/community/swag https://clojure.org/community/swag The far more important and long-reaching gestures would be: expressions of thanks, and standing up for creators whenever unwarranted demands are made upon them.